The Psycho-Mythological Framework of Fantasy Roleplaying

[jay]

Clanak na WotC message boards. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=451604)

Kaj mislite o ovom tekstu?

[-Almighty_Watashi-]

Nije nis posebno reko, al jako simpa za procitat :)...

...ak izuzmemo to da je izgubio raspravu sam sa sobom onog trenutka kad je spomenul hitlera :zubo:

[Glupinickname]

Hm... Zanlmijiva hrana za misli. OK, tip mi nije rekao nista puno kaj vec nisam i sam znal, no cak i tak, tekst je zanimljiv. Komentari i kritike teksta su mi ako ista jos zanimljiviji.
Recimo okaynowa veli na originalni post:

"When players come to the table they bring their own dramatic masks and Archetypes with them. Depending on who plays what, every class has the potential to be the Trickster, the Wild Man, or the Knight. Rather than forcing each class into an Archetype, show us the Archetypes and explain how each class might represent it."

Ovo je, mislim, vrlo dobra poanta. Klase su u D&D-u samo sredstvo (kao i bilo koja pravila u bilo kojem RPG-u) preko kojeg igraci slazu arhetipove, savrsene verzije sebe samih ili se pak poigravaju sa slobodom koju imaju u RPG svijetu. Takvo razmisljanje sam ide na vodu predrasudi o klasama koje sluze kao tocno odredjeni kliseji. S druge strane, igrac koji voli igrati Trickstera, ce vrlo lako upadati u taj arhetip bez obzira kaj igraju: wizarda, roguea, fightera...

Osobno mi je upravo ovo zadnje mozda najfascinantnije - kak igraci vode svoje likove po svijetu gdje, sto god napravio, nece biti realno nikakvih stetnih posljedica. Neki zele riskirat i biti heroji a neki to vide ko ispriku za izivljavanje najnizih poriva. Bok i bogme sam vidio i jednog i drugog u igri.

Evo malo dodatnog materijala za razmisljanje. Naletil sam na ovaj sajt di ima ukratko objasnjeni Jungovi arhetipovi (http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Archetype#Jungian_archetypes). Mozda ovo malo jos doprinese raspravi. :)

[Glupinickname]

Jos par dobrih komentara od okaynowe:

Your straightforward outline of the archetypal plots of mythology matches up well with Joseph Campbell’s theory that, loosely speaking, there is one Myth that gets told over and over. A sound theory, and easy to demonstrate, but how should knowing this theory affect our D&D experience?

Do players find adventure sessions that match one of the archetypal plots more enjoyable?

Does knowing this theory take D&D out of the realm of “hobby” and put it back in oral tradition/perpetuation of myth/creation of community identity?

If it were possible to write/run an adventure session that did not match one of these archetypal plots, what would be the advantages/disadvantages to doing so?


I jos:



Race and Mask
The player’s choice of character race may reveal more about dramatic identity and mythical archetype than the player’s choice of class. Class is doing, race is being, in a very primal way. Fantasy races tend to be abstractions and amplifications of human qualities, and are in every sense alter egos. While fantasy races are highly susceptible to stereotyping, they are also thereby the most likely to embody enduring Archetypes.



I na kraju:



What your analysis has not provided is a reading of the actual game play experience as an event in which myths are recreated and archetypes enacted. You’ve helped us examine the script of the play, but left out the performance. Consider expanding your reading to include the in-game and meta-game traditions that have grown up around D&D: what would Jung say about the Munchkin, the Monty Haul campaign, the cliché of the adventure that begins in a tavern? Why and how does one player manage to play an elven druid, a human thief, and a half-dragon barbarian in exactly the same way? What about the DM, who plays no single character but inhabits every NPC and monster simultaneously?

[jay]

Jedan link samo tangencijalno povezan s ovim, ali zanimljiv za nas RPG-ere: Stock Characters (http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Stock_character).

[-Watashi!i!i!i-]

jay kaže:
Jedan link samo tangencijalno povezan s ovim, ali zanimljiv za nas RPG-ere: Stock Characters (http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Stock_character).

Zakon :eek:

E ovo je vec koristan link :cool:

[Glupinickname]

jay kaže:
Jedan link samo tangencijalno povezan s ovim, ali zanimljiv za nas RPG-ere: Stock Characters (http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Stock_character).
ZAAAAAKON!!!! E, ovo je vec tip stvari koji se javljaju u svim RPGovima bez razlike. Save as!

A glete ovo: Igor (http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Igor)!

Villain (http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Villain)

"Yet what makes the villain really indispensable in many works of fiction, including virtually all modern action movies, is that he provides an impeccable excuse for sadistic pleasure. The standard action story invariably begins by demonizing the villain—i.e., showing that he is so evil that he ceases to be a human being and becomes a monster; so that making him suffer is only necessary justice and most commendable. From then on, the reader or viewer can enjoy the sadistic pleasure of watching someone being beaten, burned, chopped, impaled, blown to bits, etc. etc.; and can identify himself with the hero who is doing all that — all with a clean conscience."

HA! Komentar na mjestu!

Nadalje!Plot Devices! (http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Plot_device) Djeco, ovo procitati:

A plot device is a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot.

Primjeri plot deviceova:

Plot Dump Plot dump or exposition is a term used by the movie and television industries to describe a plot device by which critical elements of the plot, often involving the back-story, are not depicted directly but are instead elaborated in dialogue by one of the characters or by a narrator. (...) [i] The Austin Powers film series has a character named Basil Exposition whose job was to repeatedly plot dump as a parody of the process in ordinary movies.

Quest he quest is a plot device frequently found in mythology and literature. (...) A familiar modern literary quest is seen in the tale of Frodo Baggins's quest to destroy the One Ring in The Lord of the Rings. The One Ring, its baleful power, the difficult method which is the only way to destroy it, and the spiritual and psychological torture it wreaks on its Bearer, is used by Tolkien to tell a meaningful tale of friendship and the inner struggle with temptation, against a background of epic and supernatural warfare.

In the hands of others, however, the arbitrariness of the quest, the MacGuffin character of its objects, and the thin plot devices used to make its accomplishment difficult, make the quest motif one of the more obvious and less satisfying devices in fiction. However, the quest device is still used in many derivative role-playing games and computer role-playing games and works of mass market fantasy fiction.

MacGuffin - The term "MacGuffin" was invented by Alfred Hitchcock; according to the Oxford English Dictionary, he explained the term in a 1939 lecture at Columbia University:

In regard to the tune, we have a name in the studio, and we call it the 'MacGuffin'. It is the mechanical element that usually crops up in any story. In crook stories it is always the necklace and in spy stories it is always the papers.

Interviewed in 1966 by Francois Truffaut, Hitchcock illustrated the term "MacGuffin" with this story:

It might be a Scottish name, taken from a story about two men in a train. One man says, 'What's that package up there in the baggage rack?' And the other answers, 'Oh that's a McGuffin.' The first one asks 'What's a McGuffin?' 'Well' the other man says, 'It's an apparatus for trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands.' The first man says, 'But there are no lions in the Scottish Highlands,' and the other one answers 'Well, then that's no McGuffin!' So you see, a McGuffin is nothing at all.

[Kuhar-psihotik]

glupinickname kaže:
Djeco, ovo procitati:

A plot device is a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot.


:D dakako oni koji u izloženi književnoteorijskom diskursu možda već prepoznaju nešto što anglosaksonska knjiž. kritika poznaje samo kao Device, i što pripovjedači redovito koriste kao pomoć pri postizanju pripovjednih efekata... my point being da neka 'djeca' možda već znaju za ideju pripovjednih tehnika... i koriste ih pri vođenju svojjih kampanja kao vrlo korisno sredstvo ;)

[Glupinickname]

Kuhar-psihotik kaže:
:D dakako oni koji u izloženi književnoteorijskom diskursu
jel si mamu doma ljubis tim ustima? Fuj te bilo! :rospija: :zubo:

my point being da neka 'djeca' možda već znaju za ideju pripovjednih tehnika... i koriste ih pri vođenju svojjih kampanja kao vrlo korisno sredstvo
Oh, ali poanta mi je primamno bila reci "LJUDI NEMOJTE TO VISE RADIT U KAMPANJAMA JER TO JE TOLKO STARI I POFUCANI TRIK DA VEC POSTOJI I NJEGOVA DEFINICIJA NA INTERNETU!"

[ljiga]

glupinickname kaže:
Oh, ali poanta mi je primamno bila reci "LJUDI NEMOJTE TO VISE RADIT U KAMPANJAMA JER TO JE TOLKO STARI I POFUCANI TRIK DA VEC POSTOJI I NJEGOVA DEFINICIJA NA INTERNETU!" Ovo mi sad nije jasno (jest da sam se kasnije uključio), ali želiš reći da ne koristimo plot - device-e.
Pa koliko sam skužio svaki "plot" mora imati plot device

[Glupinickname]

ljiga kaže:
Ovo mi sad nije jasno (jest da sam se kasnije uključio), ali želiš reći da ne koristimo plot - device-e.
Pa koliko sam skužio svaki "plot" mora imati plot device
Ma pusti. Ja isto brijem. Al zaozbiljno: nije tolki bed koristit plot deviceove nek je bed koristit plot deviceove na los nacin. Npr:

DM:"Ako zelite poraziti zlu Hordu, treba vam Magicni Wosaname of Thingamagig."
Igraci:"A kaj taj Wosaname tocno radi?"
DM:"Nije bitno. Sam nabavite prokletu stvar jer inace nema avanture."

Zbilja bi bilo okej da plot deviceovi unutar igre imaju nekakvog smisla. Naprimjer: stanovnistvo grada umire od epidemije nepoznate bolesti. Potreban im je lijek. No, do lijeka treba doci. I zato se ekipa adventurera upucuje na misiju da pronadju i donesu taj lijek. Ova ideja nije nista posebno originalno ali taj taj plot device bar ima nekog smisla i efekta a nije sam sebi svrha.

Za dodatnu varijaciju: nije poanta pronaci lijek nego pronaci *tipa* koji zna napraviti taj lijek. Kad party konacno nadje tipa, to nije nekakvi mocni spellcaster nego mali dida. Dida moze sloziti lijek ali jedini zna ispravno izraditi recept zbog cega bi ga bilo najbolje odvesti natrag do grada. No, s obzirom da je cica star, slab i senilan, party ima pune ruke posla da spasi cicu od opasnih cudovista i raznih nevolja. Takodjer, putem natrag, party pomaze didi prikupit neophodne komponente za lijek sto nije ni izdaleka tak lako ko sto se cini.

[Kuhar-psihotik]

glupinickname kaže:

jel si mamu doma ljubis tim ustima? Fuj te bilo!:rospija: :zubo:

nažalost da ... a sta ces... komparativna te zatruje totalno :D :D

glupinickname kaže:
Ma pusti. Ja isto brijem. Al zaozbiljno: nije tolki bed koristit plot deviceove nek je bed koristit plot deviceove na los nacin.

so true.. slažem se:) .. al je zgodno bacit kost igračima, tj da nešto izgleda kao tipični nađi-stvar-pobij-čuvara/e-donesi-stvar/i-spasi-svijet a onda se zajebu kad obrneš ideju, zato što idu po predvidljivom putu, i NE MISLE! srahm ih i stid bilo :D :cool: