Kada se rascisti i otkljuca onaj topic problematicnog naslova (nadam se da ce se promijeniti i sam naslov topica jer je tendenciozan), ovaj se slobodno moze spojiti s njim. (http://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63737)
The rabbis' unified voice
By Meir Buzaglo
It would be good to create some order amid the storm kicked up by the manifesto published by the council of Yesha rabbis and the heads of hesder yeshivot, which combine military service and Torah studies. The question they raise is "whether to fight the enemy when an attack will kill civilians among whom are enemy combatants, or to refrain from fighting because of the civilians and endanger the lives of our civilians." In other words, assuming that it is permissible to hit terrorists via pinpoint assassination, is it also permissible to hit innocent bystanders?
The manifesto was published following tragic events in which Israeli soldiers were sacrificed to avoid hitting innocent Palestinians. Yet the overall impression is that the lesson the rabbis drew in response to a particular incident could, in its own right, create even more tragic occurrences in the future. At a time of so much bloodshed, it is wise to be cautious over anything that could remove the barriers preventing such violence from increasing. If the people of Israel indeed is not known for perpetrating cruel massacres - as the manifesto states - it is because during most of its history, either it did not possess the destructive power it currently holds, or it was smart enough to be vigilant and aware of aggressive drives: the reason was not because it relied on its "natural" qualities, as the manifesto puts it.
In general, limiting the complexity of the situation to whether it is preferable to kill innocent people to endanger our troops is woefully inadequate. For the sake of example, we can bring extreme cases - a ticking bomb that endangers many - that would make it permissible, and we can point to other cases that would prohibit it. This raises ethical, legal and halakhic questions that, contrary to what the manifesto implies, do not always boil down to the same answer.
The terrorists do in fact exploit these wrestlings of conscience when they hide among civilians, but in any event, there are brakes that need to be applied that I did not find in the manifesto, and therefore, it strikes me as of little value. I would propose to whoever is in a hurry to press the trigger to imagine that the building he is about to storm contains innocent Jews. Such a mental exercise is not a fail-safe recipe for preventing the killing of innocent people - witness the mass carnage in Beslan - but, at the very least, it places matters on an ethical footing that does not distinguish among blood.
Having said all of that, I do not approve of the instinctive manner in which some people on the left responded to the rabbis' manifesto. Contrary to the claim expressed by Ze'ev Segal, legal commentator for Haaretz, the argument that "our lives take precedence" does not contain a speck of incitement. Contrary to MK Yossi Sarid, I do not believe that the manifesto's signatories are ayatollahs. The charge that they are coloring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the primordial hues of Israel's war against Amalek is unfair. You can only attack a person for the things he has said.
Nonetheless, it's hard to blame those who didn't understand the rabbis. The manifesto talks about "being cautious with human lives," but I can't recall a case in which these rabbis protested against harm to a non-Jew. Where is the manifesto forbidding the humiliation of Arabs at checkpoints? Other miscarriages of justice concerning Jews also are met by their silence. Where is the outcry over the criminal nonpayment of salaries to numerous Jews and Arabs? Where is the critique of the question whether Jews may set up provocative settlements that endanger the lives of innocent children?
Where is their contribution to inter-faith dialogue, or at the very least to preventing the escalation of the strife? When nearly all the time we hear the rabbis speak in a single voice, the "response of Judaism" becomes predictable and ineffective, and it explains - though does not justify - the instinctive response.
The writer is a lecturer in the Hebrew University's philosophy department
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr
Bandić: Nisu glasovali za mene jer se boje da će izgubiti gradonačelnika
Poll: One in five right wing supporters justify assassination
Ma'ariv, 13 September 2004
A poll conducted by Haifa University’s political science department shows that almost a fifth (18.5%) of those supporting nationalist right wing policies would be willing to condone political assassination “if there was no other means to derail a dangerous policy”. Nearly 15% would actually be willing to contemplate such a step if they were convinced it was the only way to prevent a disaster that could seriously jeopardize the existence of the state.
An additional quarter justify harassing and intimidating politicians in order to coerce them into not supporting “dangerous policies that could lead to a disaster”, but would not justify physical violence.
These figures show a seven percent increase in the number of people willing to sanction political violence in order to achieve their aims.
Comment: This should be perhaps placed in the context of this sort of thing: http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/gallery/168/526.jpg (image shows the head of the Disengagement Authority, Yonatan Basi, with the words "We will not forgive" in red).
Kach was also out in force as well, with their "Buy From Jews Only" T-Shirts etc.
* Assuming they believe that person to be Yigal Amir, as some don't - just check out the "book stall" that was in Zion Square during the demonstration - the idiots who run that have been condemned many times in Ma'ariv, not that anybody cares, or even notices.
Kach is mentioned in this article, noting that they (mostly teenagers, it appears) were out wearing their yellow T-Shirts and "even selling the books of Barry Chamish" at a nearby stall, which I mentioned above.
Regarding Chamish, an article by Shalom Yerushalemi in Ma'ariv last year (Nov 03) noted that the sellers of his works are usually to be found outside Likud conventions, and that interest in his works is "becoming greater" these days.
He's a grade A loon, in case you didn't know - the "father of conspiracy theories of the Rabin assassination". To quote Shalom:
"(The) conference guests, many members of likud HQ and many activists happily buy this doctine, thirsty for the argument that his GSS security guard shot Rabin, the cover of his latest work, "Save Israel", also discusses the slaughter carried out by Baruch Goldstein at the Tomb of the Patriachs. Chamish claims that Goldstein was a naive doctor, the GSS that entered the Tomb carried out the massacre and another border guard quickly left the scene, abandoning Goldstein to the Arab worshippers who beat him to death with a fire-extinguisher. The GSS, according to Chamish, sought to kill the right-wing by a crazed provocation"
The above is taken from an article discussing how the extreme right in Israel justifies transfer, steals the Nazi slogan "Buy From Jews Only" (i.e. inverting it) and hates Sharon with a passion (article is called the "Alternative Likud", and focuses on the Manhigut Yehudit -"Jewish Leadershp" group).
You can see a picture of this book stall in the link provided BTW.
As for Kach being ******ed, that's a joke. It's not like the GSS is going to round up the whole of Bat-Ayin settlement, and that's even assuming they could enter there in the first place (probably not, given that GSS informers in the Yehudit division are often publically exposed and ran out of there and other places with threats of violence). Kach is basically forbidden from standing for election, which is meaningless, since Herut isn't, and is essentially the same.
Užas...Otišla sam na onu temu i to je prestrašno...Antisemitizam u čistom obliku...Mislim da IMF mora nešto poduzeti...Meni upisi tih likova nisu zvučali kao neukusna zafrkancija već iskonska mržnja...Ne mogu vjerovati da nakon toliko godina poslije Holokausta netko može ovakve stvari javno izreći...
I još nešto, od lokalnih boraca za ljudska prava na ovome forumu, ni traga ni glasa...
flowers kaže:
Poll: One in five right wing supporters justify assassination
Ma'ariv, 13 September 2004
A poll conducted by Haifa University’s political science department shows that almost a fifth (18.5%) of those supporting nationalist right wing policies would be willing to condone political assassination “if there was no other means to derail a dangerous policy”.
Zbunjuje te cinjenica da je ljudima u Izraelu omoguceno da slobodno izrazavaju svoje misljenje? Pa zar to nije jedno od obiljezja demokratskog drustva? S ogradom da postoje dvije zabranjene zidovske desnicarske stranke/pokreta - jer, u demokraciji se pravi razlika izmedju slobode govora i govora mrznje.
Inace, originalni autor ovog clanka je zaboravio napisati koliki je postotak u Izraelu onih koji podupiru nationalist right wing policies
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr
Bandić: Nisu glasovali za mene jer se boje da će izgubiti gradonačelnika
Barry Chamish je klaun, nesto poput izraelskog ILa, prije nego sto je postao "strucnjak za ubojstvo Rabina" bio je strucnjak za NLOove i o tome napisao par knjiga i tonu clanaka. Danas tvrdi da je Peres ubio Rabina po nalogu Vatikana... Tipa treba u ludaru.
Kah i kahane haj su zabranjene kao teroristicke organizacije. Puno kahovaca sijedi u zatvorima, neki su osudjeni, neki u administrative detention. I simboli stranke su zabranjeni, kahovci to zaobilaze tako da stampaju na njima portret meira kahane a ne simbol pokreta, sto nije zabranjeno. Kahanine i chamishove knjige nisu zabranjene jer nisu protuzakonite, dok, recimo Baruh haGever, knjiga koja hvali baruha goldsteina je zabranjena...
Sto se tice igala amira, sjedi u zatvoru i nece tako skoro van. A sto se tice atmosfere, gadna je, ali, valjda ce proc bez nasilja... Ipak je 99% populacije jasno da je bilo sto u smjeru gradjanskog rata daleko gore od bilo cega vezanog za napustanje ili nenapustanje gaze, s koje god strane politickog spektra bili. A ovih 1% (ekstremna ljevica i desnica) nemaju bas puno veze sa planetom zemljom...
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
Moram progovorit ovdje i ja (valjda me neće proglasit opet antisemitom)... pa pobogu ljudi koji je vama? Pa ovoliko nisam čuo o židovima u životu koliko na ovom chatu...židovi ono židovi ovo... mislim da nam preostaje samo jedno: cijeli svijet na koljena i molimo židove za oprost, da nam oproste ako ih krivo pogledamo na cesti, ako im naplatimo 5 lipa više itd itd itd
Hebote imam osjećaj da nešto krivo ne izgovorim nešto protiv židova jer će me odmah proglasiti zločincem i kako kršim ljudska prava pa će se moji budući naraštaji morati ispričavati sljedećih 800 godina židovskom rodu.
Moje mišljenje je jednostavno : židovski narod ima najjači lobi u svijetu (pa tak i na ovom chatu) i mislim da se to masno iskorištavaju i cijelo vrijeme plaču.
To je moje skromno mišljenje koje sam morao dati (valjda neće opet pojedinci čupat moje stare postove i gurat mi ih na nos -kao ono ja sam ovakav i onakav)
Sve u svemu pozdrav svim ljudima dobre volje bili oni židovi ili ne
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juriel nije član nijedne javne grupe a bome niti jedne političke stranke
Says referendum best way to avoid danger of civil war, denies pulling postponement stunt
Yifat Zohar and Menahem Rahat
Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he supports a referendum over the disengagement.
Speaking at a Rosh Hashana toast at the treasury, he said that given the growing divide over this issue, and the increasing talk of large-scale resistance and even civil war, the best way to avoid this would be to expedite legislation enabling the government to call a plebiscite. He said such legislation could be passed within a few weeks, and the referendum itself could and should take place within 6-8 weeks. He said that if Sharon agreed, he would come out in favor of disengagement, and actively campaign for it.
He said that given recent statements by leaders of the settlers’ movement, that they would accept the verdict of the nation, whatever it is, he said that it would be preferable to undertake the disengagement after the public had made it clear that it was in favor of such a step. He said that this would limit violent resistance to the marginal fringes.
He denied allegations it was a delaying tactic, saying that a 6-8 we3ek delay was insignificant, since in any case it was doubtful much could be done by then.
Sharon criticized the initiative, saying that Israel’s constitutional system does not allow for a referendum, which would compromise the Knesset’s sovereignty. “It and it alone has the authority to decide, and this is how it should remain”, he said.
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
Rambi, citam ovaj forum vec godinu dana, ali ne govorim hrvatski.
Dalje:
There is a group called Manhigut Yehudit in Israel which is also very close to Kach ideology (actually they're much smarter), and they have a gleaming new office in Jerusalem. Nobody is touching them - hell, deputy GOI ministers even go to their rallies in the settlements.
I am assuming however herut is part of the national union constituency... sorry for the stupidity... is it?
Kind of. Herut is an off-shoot of National Union (Ichud Leumi). It is basically part of the Revisionist strand of Israeli politics (it was established by Begin). During the period 1948-70's it formed the dominant parts of the right-wing, later Gahal (merger of Herut and Liberal Party) and later the Likud.
The former leader of Kach stood for the party in the Jan 2003 elections. Now, I personally do not think he should have been prevented from doing so, but it makes a mockery of the claim that Kach is ******ed - technically yes, in reality, not really.
From what you say it appears Israel kind of coddles and cherishes this crew?
Not really. They obviously hate Labor with a passion (just as they hated The Alignment), but they also despise Sharon. Any support is usually implicit or from certain individuals within state institutions (like the Housing Ministry).
How exactly are they different from Hamas extremists? Islamic Jihad? Did they ever back a two state solution even?
The ideology is quite similar. There was a period around 1965 when Herut rhetorically dropped claims to "the Land of Israel" but that was meaningless and only because Herut was merging with another party which did not have such claims. Herut has never, not even with one word, or one iota ever backed a two-state solution. Nor has Ichud Leumi (which is a merger between Moledet ("Homeland" -connotations are basically "Fatherland" or "Motherland"- and a couple of other marginal parties).
To quote from both platforms (in Hebrew, since they can be different in the English):
"A Palestinian state between Jordan and the sea would endanger the State of Israel", and "no additional political entity will be allowed to rise between Jordan to the sea". The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
('Security', Maza/Party Political Platform, National Union, http://www.leumi.org.il/maza.asp?su...;ון)
This is slightly less extreme than Herut, which claims that:
"Jordan is an inseperable and integral part of the Land of Israel"
('Politics-Security, Jordan', Maza/Party Political Platform, Herut, http://www.herut.org.il/hebrew_new/maza.html).
The official position of the Likud Central Committee is also rejection of a Palestinian state, and Labor's is kind of ambiguous on where a Palestinian state should be.
The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).
With the what am I saying probably not any solution that involves an independent Palestinain state but for the "last resort solution" jeopardizes judea and samaria afterall. So while they might be on a par with Hamas and Islamic Jihad they fall below par of fatah and the PLO?
Sure. Labor and Likud still fall below Fatah and the PLO. Labor didn't even come close until the 1993 declaration of principles - a stand the PLO had reached at least in 1988, but arguably in 1976.
Remember that in the peace treaty with Egypt, the Likud refused to refer to the "West Bank", instead preferring "Judea and Samaria", and would not mention "Palestinians", preferring "the Arabs of the Land of Israel".
Israeli terrorism however is righteous, but only among honest partisans (say, Begin/Shamir). The more common position is that Israeli "terror" does not exist, by definition.
The latter point appears to be incomprehensible to these people whenever it is pointed out, at least in my experience.
flowers kaže: There is a group called Manhigut Yehudit in Israel which is also very close to Kach ideology (actually they're much smarter), and they have a gleaming new office in Jerusalem. Nobody is touching them - hell, deputy GOI ministers even go to their rallies in the settlements.
prilicno su desni pa dijele dobar dio ideologije sa ekstremnom desnicom ali nisu presli crtu nasilja, otvorenog rasizma, poticanja nasilja, itd, pa su legalan pokret. Demokracija, jebiga.
Quote:
flowers kaže: Kind of. Herut is an off-shoot of National Union (Ichud Leumi). It is basically part of the Revisionist strand of Israeli politics (it was established by Begin). During the period 1948-70's it formed the dominant parts of the right-wing, later Gahal (merger of Herut and Liberal Party) and later the Likud.
Upravo suprotno, ihud je koalicija koja ukljucuje herut.
Quote:
flowers kaže: The former leader of Kach stood for the party in the Jan 2003 elections. Now, I personally do not think he should have been prevented from doing so, but it makes a mockery of the claim that Kach is ******ed - technically yes, in reality, not really.
From what you say it appears Israel kind of coddles and cherishes this crew?
Izbori su dokazali suprotno, nije dobio, niti je bilo koji drugi kahanist, a izasli su na izbore. I baruh marzel nikada nije optuzen (proveo je godine u administrative detention, tj, preventivnom hapsu), i tvrdio je da je reformiran, pa nije bilo zakonske osnove da ne ide na izbore. Opet, demokracija, pravna drzava...
Quote:
flowers kaže: Not really. They obviously hate Labor with a passion (just as they hated The Alignment), but they also despise Sharon. Any support is usually implicit or from certain individuals within state institutions (like the Housing Ministry).
Tocno, to pokazuje koliko su mainstream...
Quote:
flowers kaže: How exactly are they different from Hamas extremists? Islamic Jihad? Did they ever back a two state solution even?
Ako je two state solution mjerilo, onda molim u tu grupu svrstati i Chomskog i Edward Saida....
Quote:
flowers kaže: "A Palestinian state between Jordan and the sea would endanger the State of Israel", and "no additional political entity will be allowed to rise between Jordan to the sea". The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
('Security', Maza/Party Political Platform, National Union, http://www.leumi.org.il/maza.asp?su...;ון)
No shit. A kao ne bi... Kao sto je ova intifada dokazala...
This is slightly less extreme than Herut, which claims that:
Quote:
flowers kaže: "Jordan is an inseperable and integral part of the Land of Israel"
('Politics-Security, Jordan', Maza/Party Political Platform, Herut, http://www.herut.org.il/hebrew_new/maza.html).
Eh, da je netko jos i procitao... Povjesno i geografski ali nemaju teritorijalnih pretenzija na jordan...
Quote:
flowers kaže: The official position of the Likud Central Committee is also rejection of a Palestinian state, and Labor's is kind of ambiguous on where a Palestinian state should be.
To je i Edward Saidovo stanoviste, i stanoviste komunista...
Quote:
flowers kaže: The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).
Nije istina.
Quote:
flowers kaže: With the what am I saying probably not any solution that involves an independent Palestinain state but for the "last resort solution" jeopardizes judea and samaria afterall. So while they might be on a par with Hamas and Islamic Jihad they fall below par of fatah and the PLO?
Sto bi ovo trebalo znaciti? Izjava nema nikakvog smisla...
Quote:
flowers kaže: Sure. Labor and Likud still fall below Fatah and the PLO. Labor didn't even come close until the 1993 declaration of principles - a stand the PLO had reached at least in 1988, but arguably in 1976.
A ni ova.
Quote:
flowers kaže: Remember that in the peace treaty with Egypt, the Likud refused to refer to the "West Bank", instead preferring "Judea and Samaria", and would not mention "Palestinians", preferring "the Arabs of the Land of Israel".
Wow. Big deal. Izraz zapadna obala je izmisljen sa jordanskom okupacijom podrucja '48. Zasto bi koristili jordanski izraz kad u svim ranijim mapama ljepo pise judeja i samarija?
Quote:
flowers kaže: Israeli terrorism however is righteous, but only among honest partisans (say, Begin/Shamir). The more common position is that Israeli "terror" does not exist, by definition.
BS. Kako to da su 2 zidovske stranke zabranjene kao teroristicke organizacije?
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
so,now that you helped us confirm the fact that israel is a democracy,where people are allowed to have different opinions,i am curious to know if you will follow this with your opinion on,let's say, presence of arab parties in israeli political life and their presence in the knesset?
i am sure , people on the forum would like to know their political programs and explanation of a possibility that some of their members regularly speak to the public,at the knesset or through israeli media,comparing IDF with the nazis,or calling the defence minister or the prime minister ''a war criminal''?without being hurt or thrown to jail(let alone being hanged, or having their hands cut off...)
Quote:
flowers kaže:
How exactly are they different from Hamas extremists? Islamic Jihad? Did they ever back a two state solution even?
this is just another,pathetic, attempt to justify suicide bombings and attacks on israeli civilians.although,ther is a certain number of forum members that accept this rationale it is ,simply,a lie.
better luck,next time.
Quote:
flowers kaže:
The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).
what's your point?that if labor or likud or anyone else for that matter,have reservations about the palestinian state(and it's impact on israeli security,and it's very existance)they are...what? terrorists?it is the palestinians(including arafat), whose constant referring to all of israel, as occupied palestinian land, that instigate those reservations,suicide bombings notwithstanding.
Quote:
flowers kaže:
The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
gee... i wander what this ''bitter experience of oslo'' might be?
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Labor and Likud still fall below Fatah and the PLO. Labor didn't even come close until the 1993 declaration of principles - a stand the PLO had reached at least in 1988, but arguably in 1976.
yeah,right...
hamas says,all of palestine is ours and we want to liberate it from the river to the sea,in one blow.but,fatah, which leads the plo,feels that a fased plan must be pursued.both sides agree on the final objective.the difference between them is on the way to get there.rafiq natshe,a member of the fatah central comimtee and plo representative to saudi arabia. 26.12.1989. al-quabas newspaper,kuwait
the palestinian people's struggle, will continue until the complete liberation of the palestinian land...the palestinian people's struggle ought to be assisted until the complete liberation of palestine from the (jordan) river to the sea. yasser arafat,quoted by Libian news agency,may 1st 1990.
...sooner or later,we must force israeli society to collaborate with a greater society,our own arab society,and later we will bring about the gradual dissolution of the zionist entity. feisal al husseini, november 12th,1992. al-rai newspaper,jordan( just weeks before being recived in the white house by president bush in december 1992.)
A senior Palestinian official said the Palestinians recognize Israel's existence as a Jewish state within the 1967 borders, and do not aspire to change its demographic balance drastically.
The statement by Jibril Rajoub, Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's national security adviser, appears to be the first reference by a senior Palestinian official to Israel as a Jewish state and to its demographic issue.
Rajoub was interviewed Monday for a new Geneva Initiative campaign, entitled "We have a partner." His direct reference to Israel as a Jewish state and to its demography took the Geneva Initiative people by surprise.
flowers kaže:
"A Palestinian state between Jordan and the sea would endanger the State of Israel", and "no additional political entity will be allowed to rise between Jordan to the sea". The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
('Security', Maza/Party Political Platform, National Union, http://www.leumi.org.il/maza.asp?su...;ון)
Isn't it written, somwhere in that document, that they consider Jordan to be a palestinian state? I am not their voter, but it wouldn't be fair to equalize them with those who doesn't agree on any state for the Jews at all.
Quote:
flowers kaže:
The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).
Not true (I won't repeat previous explanations on this question); but, the only way, until today (see Haaretz) that Palestinian side was ready to accept Israel was [b]the full implementation on their mantra called the right of return, which would make yet another Palestine, just called, for the time being - Israel.
By the way, which would be the Arab counterpart of Yachad... or Meretz?
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr
Bandić: Nisu glasovali za mene jer se boje da će izgubiti gradonačelnika
Article has a statement from Kahane Chai ("Kahane Lives"), and a quote from the activist Itamar Ben-Gavi.
The latter states that the extreme right has "never hid" it's desire to get rid of Sharon, but would prefer him to end up in an "old folk's home", because he's so useless that he isn't even worth "a bullet".
The article is summed up in the title: 'Police investigating threats to life of Sharon and head of Disengagement Authority'.
....
I read Arutz Sheva daily and I also saw a threat on Israel forum 10 days ago, not a serious one though, check out Andak, he's nice, but it takes 10 days to get an account there.
[quote]duvdevan kaže:
so,now that you helped us confirm the fact that israel is a democracy,where people are allowed to have different opinions,i am curious to know if you will follow this with your opinion on,let's say, presence of arab parties in israeli political life and their presence in the knesset?
i am sure , people on the forum would like to know their political programs and explanation of a possibility that some of their members regularly speak to the public,at the knesset or through israeli media,comparing IDF with the nazis,or calling the defence minister or the prime minister ''a war criminal''?without being hurt or thrown to jail(let alone being hanged, or having their hands cut off...)[quote]
No need to go through this again, I'm sure you can find some friends here
[quote]this is just another,pathetic, attempt to justify suicide bombings and attacks on israeli civilians.although,ther is a certain number of forum members that accept this rationale it is ,simply,a lie.
better luck,next time....[quote]
I've never met anyone who would justify that.
[quote]what's your point?that if labor or likud or anyone else for that matter,have reservations about the palestinian state(and it's impact on israeli security,and it's very existance)they are...what? terrorists?it is the palestinians(including arafat), whose constant referring to all of israel, as occupied palestinian land, that instigate those reservations,suicide bombings notwithstanding.[quote]
The only person that makes some sense to me is Lapid, too bad he's so old.
[quote]gee... i wander what this ''bitter experience of oslo'' might be?...[quote]
Hamas just "dropped" Oslo according to the Jerusalem Post. I'm sure you read Imemc too, check out yesterday's edition.
rambi kaže:
[b]Isn't it written, somwhere in that document, that they consider Jordan to be a palestinian state? I am not their voter, but it wouldn't be fair to equalize them with those who doesn't agree on any state for the Jews at all.
Not true (I won't repeat previous explanations on this question); but, the only way, until today (see Haaretz) that Palestinian side was ready to accept Israel was the full implementation on their mantra called the right of return, which would make yet another Palestine, just called, for the time being - Israel.
By the way, which would be the Arab counterpart of Yachad... or Meretz?
Do you have a theory?
I mostly stick to three books that can be found in public libraries here, Sobajic's "Jews and Israel", Baletic's "The return of Jews to the land of Israel" and Ahron Bregman's "A History of Israel".
flowers kaže: I mostly stick to three books that can be found in public libraries here, Sobajic's "Jews and Israel", Baletic's "The return of Jews to the land of Israel" and Ahron Bregman's "A History of Israel".
flowers kaže: Let's not be silly here. Herut split from Ichud Leumi a while ago and ran on it's own ticket in the Jan 2003 elections.
Sorry, you are correct... Yes... They didn't get in, though...
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flowers kaže: Article has a statement from Kahane Chai ("Kahane Lives"), and a quote from the activist Itamar Ben-Gavi.
First, it's Ben Gvir... And I thik it's clear to anyone who follows israeli press that he is a shabak agent provocateur or just plain idiot. Possibly both. He has broken the law so many times, has a new trial each month, and every time he is let out on a technicality... I know several americans that moved in JDL and later kach circles and they are all 100% sure that he is a shabak provocateur. He is very similar to Avigdor Eskin, or Avishai Raviv both in his actions, and in the way he never gets charged... Also, it is very telling that they allways do provocations, that are at best misdemeanors, make a lot of noise in the media, but never does real crimes.
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flowers kaže: The latter states that the extreme right has "never hid" it's desire to get rid of Sharon, but would prefer him to end up in an "old folk's home", because he's so useless that he isn't even worth "a bullet".
I don't have doubts that there are people who think that. Let's just hope they'll get caught before they manage to do anything...
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flowers kaže: The article is summed up in the title: 'Police investigating threats to life of Sharon and head of Disengagement Authority'.
Old news, they have been for a while.
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flowers kaže: I read Arutz Sheva daily and I also saw a threat on Israel forum 10 days ago, not a serious one though, check out Andak, he's nice, but it takes 10 days to get an account there.
Dog that barks doesn't bite. Silent tipes like Amir or Baruch Goldstein are dangerous. You never get a warning before they strike. They just go and do it. That's what I would worry about, not a bigmouth moron like Ben Gvir... Actually, they scare me shitless... Bat Ayin gang was caught on time moving a truck loaded with explosives (and it was really lucky), but they were also silent types. Mahteret from '84 too.
Before Rabin was killed, Ben Gvir was doing all kinds of provocations, he put that sticker in Rabin's car, etc. But it was Amir that killed Rabin, a guy with a clean record, even was sent as a sohnut shaliyah to russia, and went trough a shabak security and self defense course before it, and they do background checks before their courses. It's really scary... Specially when you relize that it they are really neither crazy nor that extremist. Era Rappaport sure wasn't (read his book, letters from tel mond prison, you will be shocked how sane and reasonable he actually is, his rationalisations actually make sense, according to his letters, purpose of his actions was to protect his wife and children).
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
Actually, I wouldn't join any other forums if I were you (any of you). UmpaUmpa, I know exactly what you mean. We shall not discuss this again .
D., if that article's in English, post it then. Rambi, of course I won't answer your question. Besides, I read EVERYTHING, that was just a suggestion, The Jewish Virtual Library's not very popular outside of Israel or the U.S. But let's not argue... A to someone who cares...
flowers kaže: D., if that article's in English, post it then. Rambi, of course I won't answer your question. Besides, I read EVERYTHING, that was just a suggestion, The Jewish Virtual Library's not very popular outside of Israel or the U.S. But let's not argue... A to someone who cares...
Ja sam reagirala, jer si ih dao u engleskom prijevodu, a postoje hrvatska izdanja. Osim njih, postoji vec outdated (pisana sredinom i krajem 80-tih), ali zanimljiva knjiga intevriewa "Izraelci na raskrscu" (Klarin, Tajtelbaum) - knjiga ima jako lijevi bias; ipak, s obzirom na gomilu nestrucnih clanaka, koji se sad mogu naci po hrvatskom tisku i webu, knjiga je pravo osvjezenje i mogla bi se naci po hrvatskim knjiznicama. Za literaturu o Izraelu na engleskom u hrvatskim i slovenskim kjniznicama ne znam... pretpostavljam (prateci sto se i kako o Izraelu pise) da je, ili nema, ili je nitko ne cita.
Virtual Jewish Library je, po mom misljenju, odlican site, jer se na njemu moze naci i hrpa relevantnih dokumenata, a ne samo clanaka (iako, nije mi jasno zasto se uvijek samo mi ispricavamo za moguci bias ).
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr
Bandić: Nisu glasovali za mene jer se boje da će izgubiti gradonačelnika
"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every living thing will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made He man" (Genesis 9, 5-6).
The seven Noahide laws are universal, and apply to every person and every nation - and even more so to the Jews, who were specifically commanded: "Thou shalt not murder." The person who spills human blood undermines the image of God, "for in the image of God made He man."
It turns out that power has turned the heads of the rabbis of Yesha (the settlements of Judea, Samaria and Gaza) and the rabbis of some of the hesder yeshivas which combine military service and Torah study. The occupying army, the greed and the ability to satisfy it, the ease with which one can dispossess the Palestinians of their land, turn their cities into holding pens, block the wells and caves of the shepherds on Mount Hebron, and in effect destroy the foundation of their existence - all these have intensified the disdain and the arrogance, until they gave rise to a manifesto that as a "halakhic decision" (made in accordance with Jewish religious law), permits - in the course of an act of revenge against a terrorist or someone suspected of terrorism - the murder of women, children, old people and ordinary citizens who, strangely enough, are human beings who were created in God's image, and who have, according to any law, a right to life.
It's true that these rabbis are not the first to permit the murder of innocents. The late Rabbi Shaul Yisraeli, in a comprehensive "dissertation," philosophized after the murder of Arab villagers in Kibiya in 1953, and justified the killing that had embarrassed most Israelis and for which they tried to deny responsibility. In his opinion, a small Arab becomes a big Arab, and a mother can give birth to more little Arabs who will become big.
The Yesha rabbis, who are busy making innovative halakhic decisions when it comes to what is not theirs, don't have the time for innovation when it comes to issues that benefit others. For example, the status and rights of women, or Israeli citizens who came here by dint of the Right of Return and who are being asked by everyone to change their religion as a condition for receiving full rights - in spite of the fact that we have learned that "a family that has become integrated is considered integrated, and that all families will be considered `kosher' in the future" (Even Haezer).
That was said regarding a mamzer (in Jewish law, a child born of a woman's relations with a man other than her husband, while the woman is still legally married, and who consequently is not allowed to marry another Jew), and is even more true of those who are not mamzerim, who are not bound by the law of "what is distorted cannot be repaired."
Yes, in the name of God, they are allocating power to themselves in every area that is convenient for them and their followers. And instead of all the Biblical verses that vigilantly protect the rights of the stranger, because "you were strangers in the land of Egypt," they prefer to adopt the verse that relates to the seven nations of Canaan: "That shalt destroy them utterly, thou shalt make no covenant with them nor show mercy on them" (in other words, don't enable to live alongside you, Deuteronomy 7:2); and the rabbis have already forbidden the rental or sale of an apartment to Arabs, and some have even ruled, in the name of the halakha, that one is permitted to expel them.
The new halakhic ruling gives the army a free hand to bomb densely populated areas and to use lethal weapons without checking whether there are children or old people. Although as we know, the army didn't wait for the rabbis' permission, it is now receiving approval from those who speak in the name of the God of Israel. Although it should be mentioned that there are great rabbis who rule differently from those who grant permission to murder civilians, or who praise Baruch Goldstein (who massacred Muslims praying in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron), Yigal Amir (who assassinated Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin), and the hilltop youths, and all the destroyers and murderers who wander about the occupied territories and sow destruction all around - none of whom has been indicted.
I recall the essay by the late Rabbi Israel Hess, the rabbi of Bar-Ilan University, who wrote in the university newspaper that "we are all obligated to carry out genocide," because he did research and discovered that the Palestinians are descendants of Amalek, the tribe that the Torah commands us to destroy (and that has become a symbol of evil for Jews). Rabbi Prof. Emanuel Rackman, who was then president of the university, brought about his dismissal. It's no coincidence that in the settlements the Palestinians are called "Amalek," and the intention is obvious to everyone.
The new ruling, which determines that the blood of a Jew is redder than that of others, will not bring great honor to the Jewish people. It is a shame that at a time when the Jews are sovereign in their country, the rulers of the strongest country in the Middle East, the "image of God" has become so worthless in the eyes of so many.
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Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil and the image of evil was a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.........
Histericna krava... Dok je bila ministrica bila je najomrazenija zena izraela zbog svojih ispada. Dobro da vise nije ministrica jer bi svim snagama radila da zapocne gradjanski rat. Ona mrzi religiozne zidove vise od ILa.
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
UmpaUmpa kaže: Histericna krava... Dok je bila ministrica bila je najomrazenija zena izraela zbog svojih ispada. Dobro da vise nije ministrica jer bi svim snagama radila da zapocne gradjanski rat. Ona mrzi religiozne zidove vise od ILa.
e,polako!
vidim da si žrtva propagande....šula je poštena žena i ne mrzi nikoga.
uzroke ''mržnje'' potraži kod lopova iz shas-a.
duvdevan kaže: e,polako!
vidim da si žrtva propagande....šula je poštena žena i ne mrzi nikoga.
uzroke ''mržnje'' potraži kod lopova iz shas-a.
Da nisam citao interviewe sa njom, jos bi ti i povjerovao... Jos da sam shasnik mozda bi me i diralo ovo za "lopove iz shasa". Kad smo kod toga, ja u zivotu nisam sjedio u vladi sa "lopovima iz shasa" (nisam ni glasao, niti ikad bi) a tvoja draga sula je. Pritom, zasto joj ne smetaju lopovi iz mereca i avoda? Mozda ima dvostruka mjerila? Zasto ju nije smetala perasat amutot, ili weitzmanova pljacka koja je bila deseterostruko veca od derijeve?
Kakve veze sa shasom ima izjava da Menahem Elon ne moze biti nepristran sudija jer nosi kipa? Pa Rav Ovadiju usporedit sa Kaligulom? BTW, ne mrzi ona samo religiozne. Usporedba Ichaka Rabina sa Musolinijem? Ponovila je isto i sa Netanjahuom 10 godina kasnije, za koga je jos izjavila da je dobar ucenik goebelsa. Slicno je vrijedjala Begina, Samira, Peresa, itd. Zena je klimaktericna histericna baba.
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
Ja klinac, Shulamit histericna babetina...........bas si ti nesto fin danas
Shulamit je divna zena sa kojom se slazem 100%, a ako ti ne, to je tvoj problem.
Idi navijaj za Bibija i vici "Hem..me fa ha dim..."
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Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil and the image of evil was a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.........
Gur kaže: Ja klinac, Shulamit histericna babetina...........bas si ti nesto fin danas
Pardon, nisam to rekao. Rekao sam histericna klimaktericna baba. Molim te da me preciznije citiras.
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Gur kaže: Shulamit je divna zena sa kojom se slazem 100%, a ako ti ne, to je tvoj problem.
Samo sto je izvredjala sve s kima je ikad bila u kontaktu. Zenska verzija Weitzmana... To sto tebi to imponira...
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Gur kaže: Idi navijaj za Bibija i vici "Hem..me fa ha dim..."
A zasto ne za Peresa, kojeg je doticna isto izvrijedjala? Ti navijas za peresa, zar ne?
BTW, ja ne navijam.
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
Ja sam bio za Tamar a kako nje vise nema nisam za nikoga...ne znam tko mi je odvratniji
A za koga si ti?
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Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil and the image of evil was a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.........
Gur kaže: Ja sam bio za Tamar a kako nje vise nema nisam za nikoga...ne znam tko mi je odvratniji
A za koga si ti?
Za Jacpana. Zadnji put sam glas'o '96, zgadili mi se politicari. Danas to pratim kao cirkus, kao humoristicku emisiju. Najbolji je bio talk show (mislim nisim misal), stavili Uzi Landaua i Matan Vilnaija da nesto raspravljaju, e 2 gumbyja... Probaj samo zamislit njihove glasove kad raspravljaju... Probaj imitirat... Ja sam pishao od smijeha...
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
Superstition changes name of pullout operation
JPost.com Staff, THE JERUSALEM POST Sep. 19, 2004
Superstitious concern led the IDF to change the code name that had been given to the disengagement plan.
The name, "Zohar ha-rakia" (brightness of the heavens), which was chosen randomly by a computer, is a line from the El Male Rahamim prayer, recited for the repose of the souls of the dead.
Rabbis who had learned of the name assigned to disengagement operations appealed for it to be changed because, they warned, it doesn't herald good news, Yediot Ahronot reported.
The El Male Rahamim (God Full of Compassion) prayer, recited by Ashkenazim after a burial, on the thirteenth day after a death, and at Yizkor memorial services, contains the line "But grant perfect rest on the wings of Your Divine Presence in the lofty abode of the holy, pure and valiant who shine as the brightness of the heavens to the soul of [the departed]." The El Male Rahamim prayer corresponds to the Sephardic Ashkavah prayer.
Rabbi Daniel Shiloh from the Kedumim settlement in the West Bank commented on the sinister name. "It is amazing how cynical and ironic it is that the name chosen for the plan to uproot thousands of Jews from their homes is a phrase said over graves of the dead. Even if clearly the name was chosen randomly by a computer, it is still chilling."
One of the names offered as a replacement is "Avnei derech," which means milestones.
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Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
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to someone who cares...
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