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Old 14.09.2004., 22:31   #21
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[QUOTE]duvdevan kaže:
so,now that you helped us confirm the fact that israel is a democracy,where people are allowed to have different opinions,i am curious to know if you will follow this with your opinion on,let's say, presence of arab parties in israeli political life and their presence in the knesset?
i am sure , people on the forum would like to know their political programs and explanation of a possibility that some of their members regularly speak to the public,at the knesset or through israeli media,comparing IDF with the nazis,or calling the defence minister or the prime minister ''a war criminal''?without being hurt or thrown to jail(let alone being hanged, or having their hands cut off...)[QUOTE]

No need to go through this again, I'm sure you can find some friends here

http://www.fresh.co.il/dcforum/dcboard.cgi


[QUOTE]this is just another,pathetic, attempt to justify suicide bombings and attacks on israeli civilians.although,ther is a certain number of forum members that accept this rationale it is ,simply,a lie.
better luck,next time....[QUOTE]

I've never met anyone who would justify that.


[QUOTE]what's your point?that if labor or likud or anyone else for that matter,have reservations about the palestinian state(and it's impact on israeli security,and it's very existance)they are...what? terrorists?it is the palestinians(including arafat), whose constant referring to all of israel, as occupied palestinian land, that instigate those reservations,suicide bombings notwithstanding.[QUOTE]

The only person that makes some sense to me is Lapid, too bad he's so old.

[QUOTE]gee... i wander what this ''bitter experience of oslo'' might be?...[QUOTE]

Hamas just "dropped" Oslo according to the Jerusalem Post. I'm sure you read Imemc too, check out yesterday's edition.
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Old 14.09.2004., 22:52   #22
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No need to go through this again, I'm sure you can find some friends here.
http://www.fresh.co.il/dcforum/dcboard.cgi
that's exactly what yassin used to say...don't you think so?

Quote:
flowers kaze
I've never met anyone who would justify that.
i would agree to that,but one can never be too sure.

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The only person that makes some sense to me is Lapid, too bad he's so old.
sure.but his son is a martial arts expert,and one of the most popular tv personalities in israel.have you ever read his column in ma'ariv on friday?

Quote:
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Hamas just "dropped" Oslo according to the Jerusalem Post. I'm sure you read Imemc too, check out yesterday's edition.
if you trust jpost regarding hamas,you are in for a big surprise.even imemc agrees on that.
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Old 14.09.2004., 22:57   #23
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[B]Isn't it written, somwhere in that document, that they consider Jordan to be a palestinian state? I am not their voter, but it wouldn't be fair to equalize them with those who doesn't agree on any state for the Jews at all.

Not true (I won't repeat previous explanations on this question); but, the only way, until today (see Haaretz) that Palestinian side was ready to accept Israel was the full implementation on their mantra called the right of return, which would make yet another Palestine, just called, for the time being - Israel.

By the way, which would be the Arab counterpart of Yachad... or Meretz?
Do you have a theory?

I mostly stick to three books that can be found in public libraries here, Sobajic's "Jews and Israel", Baletic's "The return of Jews to the land of Israel" and Ahron Bregman's "A History of Israel".

http://israel.poetryinternational.org/
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Old 14.09.2004., 23:03   #24
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I don't like The Jeruselem Post, but what can I do... I know about Lapid's son, I'll try to find his column in ma'ariv.
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Old 14.09.2004., 23:03   #25
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Quote:
flowers kaže:
Do you have a theory?
Yep. Do you?

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I mostly stick to three books that can be found in public libraries here, Sobajic's "Jews and Israel", Baletic's "The return of Jews to the land of Israel" and Ahron Bregman's "A History of Israel".
Nedovoljno...

http://www.ijs.si/lit/preseren.html-l2
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Old 14.09.2004., 23:07   #26
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By the way, which would be the Arab counterpart of Yachad... or Meretz?
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Old 14.09.2004., 23:55   #27
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Let's not be silly here. Herut split from Ichud Leumi a while ago and ran on it's own ticket in the Jan 2003 elections.
Sorry, you are correct... Yes... They didn't get in, though...
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Article has a statement from Kahane Chai ("Kahane Lives"), and a quote from the activist Itamar Ben-Gavi.
First, it's Ben Gvir... And I thik it's clear to anyone who follows israeli press that he is a shabak agent provocateur or just plain idiot. Possibly both. He has broken the law so many times, has a new trial each month, and every time he is let out on a technicality... I know several americans that moved in JDL and later kach circles and they are all 100% sure that he is a shabak provocateur. He is very similar to Avigdor Eskin, or Avishai Raviv both in his actions, and in the way he never gets charged... Also, it is very telling that they allways do provocations, that are at best misdemeanors, make a lot of noise in the media, but never does real crimes.
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The latter states that the extreme right has "never hid" it's desire to get rid of Sharon, but would prefer him to end up in an "old folk's home", because he's so useless that he isn't even worth "a bullet".
I don't have doubts that there are people who think that. Let's just hope they'll get caught before they manage to do anything...
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The article is summed up in the title: 'Police investigating threats to life of Sharon and head of Disengagement Authority'.
Old news, they have been for a while.
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I read Arutz Sheva daily and I also saw a threat on Israel forum 10 days ago, not a serious one though, check out Andak, he's nice, but it takes 10 days to get an account there.
Dog that barks doesn't bite. Silent tipes like Amir or Baruch Goldstein are dangerous. You never get a warning before they strike. They just go and do it. That's what I would worry about, not a bigmouth moron like Ben Gvir... Actually, they scare me shitless... Bat Ayin gang was caught on time moving a truck loaded with explosives (and it was really lucky), but they were also silent types. Mahteret from '84 too.

Before Rabin was killed, Ben Gvir was doing all kinds of provocations, he put that sticker in Rabin's car, etc. But it was Amir that killed Rabin, a guy with a clean record, even was sent as a sohnut shaliyah to russia, and went trough a shabak security and self defense course before it, and they do background checks before their courses. It's really scary... Specially when you relize that it they are really neither crazy nor that extremist. Era Rappaport sure wasn't (read his book, letters from tel mond prison, you will be shocked how sane and reasonable he actually is, his rationalisations actually make sense, according to his letters, purpose of his actions was to protect his wife and children).
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Old 15.09.2004., 01:34   #28
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Actually, I wouldn't join any other forums if I were you (any of you). UmpaUmpa, I know exactly what you mean. We shall not discuss this again .

D., if that article's in English, post it then. Rambi, of course I won't answer your question. Besides, I read EVERYTHING, that was just a suggestion, The Jewish Virtual Library's not very popular outside of Israel or the U.S. But let's not argue... A to someone who cares...

See ya
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Old 18.09.2004., 20:15   #29
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D., if that article's in English, post it then. Rambi, of course I won't answer your question. Besides, I read EVERYTHING, that was just a suggestion, The Jewish Virtual Library's not very popular outside of Israel or the U.S. But let's not argue... A to someone who cares...
Ja sam reagirala, jer si ih dao u engleskom prijevodu, a postoje hrvatska izdanja. Osim njih, postoji vec outdated (pisana sredinom i krajem 80-tih), ali zanimljiva knjiga intevriewa "Izraelci na raskrscu" (Klarin, Tajtelbaum) - knjiga ima jako lijevi bias; ipak, s obzirom na gomilu nestrucnih clanaka, koji se sad mogu naci po hrvatskom tisku i webu, knjiga je pravo osvjezenje i mogla bi se naci po hrvatskim knjiznicama. Za literaturu o Izraelu na engleskom u hrvatskim i slovenskim kjniznicama ne znam... pretpostavljam (prateci sto se i kako o Izraelu pise) da je, ili nema, ili je nitko ne cita.

Virtual Jewish Library je, po mom misljenju, odlican site, jer se na njemu moze naci i hrpa relevantnih dokumenata, a ne samo clanaka (iako, nije mi jasno zasto se uvijek samo mi ispricavamo za moguci bias ).

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Old 18.09.2004., 23:20   #30
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Ha'aretz



Losing God's image

By Shulamit Aloni



"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every living thing will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made He man" (Genesis 9, 5-6).




The seven Noahide laws are universal, and apply to every person and every nation - and even more so to the Jews, who were specifically commanded: "Thou shalt not murder." The person who spills human blood undermines the image of God, "for in the image of God made He man."

It turns out that power has turned the heads of the rabbis of Yesha (the settlements of Judea, Samaria and Gaza) and the rabbis of some of the hesder yeshivas which combine military service and Torah study. The occupying army, the greed and the ability to satisfy it, the ease with which one can dispossess the Palestinians of their land, turn their cities into holding pens, block the wells and caves of the shepherds on Mount Hebron, and in effect destroy the foundation of their existence - all these have intensified the disdain and the arrogance, until they gave rise to a manifesto that as a "halakhic decision" (made in accordance with Jewish religious law), permits - in the course of an act of revenge against a terrorist or someone suspected of terrorism - the murder of women, children, old people and ordinary citizens who, strangely enough, are human beings who were created in God's image, and who have, according to any law, a right to life.

It's true that these rabbis are not the first to permit the murder of innocents. The late Rabbi Shaul Yisraeli, in a comprehensive "dissertation," philosophized after the murder of Arab villagers in Kibiya in 1953, and justified the killing that had embarrassed most Israelis and for which they tried to deny responsibility. In his opinion, a small Arab becomes a big Arab, and a mother can give birth to more little Arabs who will become big.

The Yesha rabbis, who are busy making innovative halakhic decisions when it comes to what is not theirs, don't have the time for innovation when it comes to issues that benefit others. For example, the status and rights of women, or Israeli citizens who came here by dint of the Right of Return and who are being asked by everyone to change their religion as a condition for receiving full rights - in spite of the fact that we have learned that "a family that has become integrated is considered integrated, and that all families will be considered `kosher' in the future" (Even Haezer).

That was said regarding a mamzer (in Jewish law, a child born of a woman's relations with a man other than her husband, while the woman is still legally married, and who consequently is not allowed to marry another Jew), and is even more true of those who are not mamzerim, who are not bound by the law of "what is distorted cannot be repaired."

Yes, in the name of God, they are allocating power to themselves in every area that is convenient for them and their followers. And instead of all the Biblical verses that vigilantly protect the rights of the stranger, because "you were strangers in the land of Egypt," they prefer to adopt the verse that relates to the seven nations of Canaan: "That shalt destroy them utterly, thou shalt make no covenant with them nor show mercy on them" (in other words, don't enable to live alongside you, Deuteronomy 7:2); and the rabbis have already forbidden the rental or sale of an apartment to Arabs, and some have even ruled, in the name of the halakha, that one is permitted to expel them.

The new halakhic ruling gives the army a free hand to bomb densely populated areas and to use lethal weapons without checking whether there are children or old people. Although as we know, the army didn't wait for the rabbis' permission, it is now receiving approval from those who speak in the name of the God of Israel. Although it should be mentioned that there are great rabbis who rule differently from those who grant permission to murder civilians, or who praise Baruch Goldstein (who massacred Muslims praying in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron), Yigal Amir (who assassinated Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin), and the hilltop youths, and all the destroyers and murderers who wander about the occupied territories and sow destruction all around - none of whom has been indicted.

I recall the essay by the late Rabbi Israel Hess, the rabbi of Bar-Ilan University, who wrote in the university newspaper that "we are all obligated to carry out genocide," because he did research and discovered that the Palestinians are descendants of Amalek, the tribe that the Torah commands us to destroy (and that has become a symbol of evil for Jews). Rabbi Prof. Emanuel Rackman, who was then president of the university, brought about his dismissal. It's no coincidence that in the settlements the Palestinians are called "Amalek," and the intention is obvious to everyone.

The new ruling, which determines that the blood of a Jew is redder than that of others, will not bring great honor to the Jewish people. It is a shame that at a time when the Jews are sovereign in their country, the rulers of the strongest country in the Middle East, the "image of God" has become so worthless in the eyes of so many.
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Old 19.09.2004., 00:18   #31
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Dje me nadje sa sulamit aloni?

Histericna krava... Dok je bila ministrica bila je najomrazenija zena izraela zbog svojih ispada. Dobro da vise nije ministrica jer bi svim snagama radila da zapocne gradjanski rat. Ona mrzi religiozne zidove vise od ILa.
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Old 19.09.2004., 07:15   #32
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Re: Dje me nadje sa sulamit aloni?

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UmpaUmpa kaže:
Histericna krava... Dok je bila ministrica bila je najomrazenija zena izraela zbog svojih ispada. Dobro da vise nije ministrica jer bi svim snagama radila da zapocne gradjanski rat. Ona mrzi religiozne zidove vise od ILa.

e,polako!
vidim da si žrtva propagande....šula je poštena žena i ne mrzi nikoga.
uzroke ''mržnje'' potraži kod lopova iz shas-a.
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Old 19.09.2004., 12:12   #33
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Re: Re: Dje me nadje sa sulamit aloni?

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duvdevan kaže:
e,polako!
vidim da si žrtva propagande....šula je poštena žena i ne mrzi nikoga.
uzroke ''mržnje'' potraži kod lopova iz shas-a.
Da nisam citao interviewe sa njom, jos bi ti i povjerovao... Jos da sam shasnik mozda bi me i diralo ovo za "lopove iz shasa". Kad smo kod toga, ja u zivotu nisam sjedio u vladi sa "lopovima iz shasa" (nisam ni glasao, niti ikad bi) a tvoja draga sula je. Pritom, zasto joj ne smetaju lopovi iz mereca i avoda? Mozda ima dvostruka mjerila? Zasto ju nije smetala perasat amutot, ili weitzmanova pljacka koja je bila deseterostruko veca od derijeve?

Kakve veze sa shasom ima izjava da Menahem Elon ne moze biti nepristran sudija jer nosi kipa? Pa Rav Ovadiju usporedit sa Kaligulom? BTW, ne mrzi ona samo religiozne. Usporedba Ichaka Rabina sa Musolinijem? Ponovila je isto i sa Netanjahuom 10 godina kasnije, za koga je jos izjavila da je dobar ucenik goebelsa. Slicno je vrijedjala Begina, Samira, Peresa, itd. Zena je klimaktericna histericna baba.
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Old 19.09.2004., 12:24   #34
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Istina boli
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Old 19.09.2004., 12:37   #35
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Istina boli
E jesi klinac...
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Old 19.09.2004., 12:42   #36
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Ja klinac, Shulamit histericna babetina...........bas si ti nesto fin danas

Shulamit je divna zena sa kojom se slazem 100%, a ako ti ne, to je tvoj problem.
Idi navijaj za Bibija i vici "Hem..me fa ha dim..."
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Old 19.09.2004., 12:51   #37
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Gur kaže:
Ja klinac, Shulamit histericna babetina...........bas si ti nesto fin danas
Pardon, nisam to rekao. Rekao sam histericna klimaktericna baba. Molim te da me preciznije citiras.
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Shulamit je divna zena sa kojom se slazem 100%, a ako ti ne, to je tvoj problem.
Samo sto je izvredjala sve s kima je ikad bila u kontaktu. Zenska verzija Weitzmana... To sto tebi to imponira...
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Idi navijaj za Bibija i vici "Hem..me fa ha dim..."
A zasto ne za Peresa, kojeg je doticna isto izvrijedjala? Ti navijas za peresa, zar ne?

BTW, ja ne navijam.
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Old 19.09.2004., 12:54   #38
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Ja sam bio za Tamar a kako nje vise nema nisam za nikoga...ne znam tko mi je odvratniji

A za koga si ti?
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Old 19.09.2004., 13:03   #39
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Ja sam bio za Tamar a kako nje vise nema nisam za nikoga...ne znam tko mi je odvratniji

A za koga si ti?
Za Jacpana. Zadnji put sam glas'o '96, zgadili mi se politicari. Danas to pratim kao cirkus, kao humoristicku emisiju. Najbolji je bio talk show (mislim nisim misal), stavili Uzi Landaua i Matan Vilnaija da nesto raspravljaju, e 2 gumbyja... Probaj samo zamislit njihove glasove kad raspravljaju... Probaj imitirat... Ja sam pishao od smijeha...
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Old 19.09.2004., 13:37   #40
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samo u izraelu...

Quote:
Superstition changes name of pullout operation
JPost.com Staff, THE JERUSALEM POST Sep. 19, 2004

Superstitious concern led the IDF to change the code name that had been given to the disengagement plan.

The name, "Zohar ha-rakia" (brightness of the heavens), which was chosen randomly by a computer, is a line from the El Male Rahamim prayer, recited for the repose of the souls of the dead.

Rabbis who had learned of the name assigned to disengagement operations appealed for it to be changed because, they warned, it doesn't herald good news, Yediot Ahronot reported.

The El Male Rahamim (God Full of Compassion) prayer, recited by Ashkenazim after a burial, on the thirteenth day after a death, and at Yizkor memorial services, contains the line "But grant perfect rest on the wings of Your Divine Presence in the lofty abode of the holy, pure and valiant who shine as the brightness of the heavens to the soul of [the departed]." The El Male Rahamim prayer corresponds to the Sephardic Ashkavah prayer.

Rabbi Daniel Shiloh from the Kedumim settlement in the West Bank commented on the sinister name. "It is amazing how cynical and ironic it is that the name chosen for the plan to uproot thousands of Jews from their homes is a phrase said over graves of the dead. Even if clearly the name was chosen randomly by a computer, it is still chilling."

One of the names offered as a replacement is "Avnei derech," which means milestones.
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