"Zašto sam ja ja a ne neko drugi"

[wand_1]

mravac8 kaže:

Ma gle, ok, možemo onda o, kako je kazao *mravčevom ja* ili općenito o temeljnom ja, autobiografskom ja .......

Evo addx očito misli da su svijest i jastvo (temeljno ja) isto, pa može dati svoje autore koji tvrde to što tvrdi i on ......

Možda mogu ja, autori koji misle da su (samo)svijest (consciousness) i jastvo (i, self) isto su npr. Dennett, Hofstadter, Pinker, Gazzaniga, Kurzweil, Minski, Moravec...

[mravac8]

wand_1 kaže:

Možda mogu ja, autori koji misle da su (samo)svijest (consciousness) i jastvo (i, self) isto su npr. Dennett, Hofstadter, Pinker, Gazzaniga, Kurzweil, Minski, Moravec...

Nisam ih čitala pa, naravno, neću o njima. Pročitati ću ih i njihove tvrdnje usporediti da Damasiom.

Međutim, sada ne mislim da su svijest, odnosno samosvijest i jastvo isto. Jastvo može biti svjesno a i ne mora. Damasio navodi primjere ljudi koji imaju jastvo, ali gube djelomično ili potpuno svijest, odnosno nisu svjesni svoje okoline.

Samosvjest kao drugi naziv za jastvo? Ne znam, ne štima mi tu nešto, imam osjećaj da je pogrešno.

Moram ići.

[addx]

mravac8 kaže:

Jesi li pročitao Damasiovu knjigu? Nisi.

Jesi li ti onda mjerodavna osoba koja će nekome tumačiti kakvo je Damasiovo temeljno ja? Nisi.

Na zalost sam ipak mjerodavniji od tebe, bez obzira.

Za mene je to temeljna stvar u raspravi - ne raspravljam o knjizi koju nisam pročitala. Raspravljam kada je pročitam.

Evo citat iz jedne druge njegove knjige (i cijela knjiga u PDFu na engleskom)

When it comes to the complex mental lives that both you and I are experiencing at this very moment, however, protoself and primordial feeling are not enough to account for the self phenomenon we are generating. The protoself and its primordial feelings are the likely foundation of the material me and are, in all probability, an important and peak manifestation of consciousness in numerous living species. But we need some intermediate self process placed between the protoself and its primordial feelings, on the one hand, and the autobiographical selves that give us our sense of personhood and identity, on the other. Something critical must change in the very state of the protoself for it to become a self in the proper sense, that is, a core self. For one thing, the mental profile of the protoself must be raised and made to stand out. For another, it must connect with the events that it is involved in. Within the narrative of the moment, it must protagonize. As I see it, the critical change of the protoself comes from its moment-to-moment engagement as caused by any object being perceived. The engagement occurs in close temporal proximity to the sensory processing of the object. Anytime the organism encounters an object, any object, the protoself is changed by the encounter. This is because, in order to map the object, the brain must adjust the body in a suitable way, and because the results of those adjustments as well as the content of the mapped image are signaled to the protoself. Changes in the protoself inaugurate the momentary creation of the core self and initiate a chain of events.

https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordp...nd_damasio.pdf

Kaze: "temeljno ja" se reproducira svaki put kad neki objekt promijeni "proto-ja" tj. kad neki objekt udje "u prostor"/fokus/blizinu "proto-ja". Tocno onako kako sam ti i napisao. Temeljno ja je "puls" koji proizlazi iz promjena u proto-ja.

I suspect that the brain’s strategy for constructing the autobiographical self is as follows. First, substantial sets of defining biographical memories must be grouped together so that each can be readily treated as an individual object. Each such object is allowed to modify the protoself and produce its pulse of core self, with the respective feelings of knowing and consequent object saliency in tow.
...
By way of a working hypothesis, then, we can say that constructing the autobiographical self depends on two conjoined mechanisms. The first is subsidiary to the core self mechanism and guarantees that each biographical set of memories is treated as an object and made conscious in a core self pulse. The second accomplishes a brain-wide operation of coordination that includes the following steps: (1) certain contents are evoked from memory and displayed as images; (2) the images are allowed to interact in an orderly manner with another system elsewhere in the brain, namely, the protoself; and (3) the results of the interaction are held coherently during a certain window of time.

Ovdje pise kako autobiografsko ja zapravo podmece situaciji relevnante autobiografske objekte u "core self" kao neposredne kako sam i napisao. Itd. Takodjer, vidi se da se rekurzija (samosvijest) u misljenju postize preko autobiografskog ja. Samosvijest u smislu svjesnosti vlastitih misli gdje svaka nova misao je objekt iz koje proizlazi iduca misao je zapravo ping pong izmedju autobiografskih objekata koji se odvija u kratkotrajnoj/prolaznoj memoriji.

Ljuti se ti koliko hoces, no meni citanje te knjige i ne treba, a tebi ne pomaze.