Je li Cionizam=rasizam

[enemy combantant]

Pitanje je jednostavno: smatrate li da je cionizam(Zidovski nacionalizam) rasisticki pokret?

SPECIJALNI DODATAK:citati Izraelskih lidera i pozatih Cionista,procitaj pa procjeni


"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).



David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971



Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974


"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)


Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995


"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.


Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983


"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988


Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992


"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.


Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.



Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001


"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

[ice41000]

enemy combantant kaže:

Pitanje je jednostavno: smatrate li da je cionizam(Zidovski nacionalizam) rasisticki pokret?

Cionizam je ideja i pokret židova s ciljem stvaranja židovske države nastao u 18. stoljeću, a danas (tj. otkako Izrael postoji) mu je cilj očuvanje te države kao domovine svih Židova.

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/zionism.htm

Rasistički? Zašto misliš? Zbog Arapa u Izraelu? Arapi i Židovi su Semiti, dakle iste rase. Ima Židova i crne rase, tako da rasistički nije.

[samBogzna]

ice41000 kaže:

Rasistički? Zašto misliš? Zbog Arapa u Izraelu? Arapi i Židovi su Semiti, dakle iste rase. Ima Židova i crne rase, tako da rasistički nije.

točno oboje su semitski narodi,ali arapin nemože postati židov,jer kao židov se možeš samo roditi,a ne postati.
možeš postati :
krščanin
musliman
budist
ali ne i židov

e to je rasistička politika

[Saul Tigh]

samBogzna kaže:

točno oboje su semitski narodi,ali arapin nemože postati židov,jer kao židov se možeš samo roditi,a ne postati.
možeš postati :
krščanin
musliman
budist
ali ne i židov

Kako ne?

http://www.convertingtojudaism.com/

[enemy combantant]

Zasto sam dobio dojam da se u gore spomenutom govoti o Zidovstvu kao vjeri
Problem je u politici.Ja se sa religijskim pitanjima nebi zelio igrati.

[rambi]

samBogzna kaže:

točno oboje su semitski narodi,ali arapin nemože postati židov,jer kao židov se možeš samo roditi,a ne postati.
možeš postati :
krščanin
musliman
budist
ali ne i židov

e to je rasistička politika

Lažeš. Možeš postati i Židov. Konverzijom, kao i u prethodnim slučajevima... a tad postaješ i član naroda.

[samBogzna]

rambi kaže:

Lažeš. Možeš postati i Židov. Konverzijom, kao i u prethodnim slučajevima... a tad postaješ i član naroda.

sereš kakvom konverzijom,nemoguće,
židov može oženiti nežidovkinju,(nije doduše blagonaklono gledano,jer se mora ženiti iskljućivo pripadnicima svoje vjere)
ali ja kao nežidov ne mogu oženiti židovku i postati židov(nemoguće)

možeš dobiti izraelsko državljanstvo,a to je nešto sasvim drugo,mnogi arapi muslimani ga imaju.

[ice41000]

samBogzna kaže:

sereš kakvom konverzijom,nemoguće,
židov može oženiti nežidovkinju,(nije doduše blagonaklono gledano,jer se mora ženiti iskljućivo pripadnicima svoje vjere)
ali ja kao nežidov ne mogu oženiti židovku i postati židov(nemoguće)

možeš dobiti izraelsko državljanstvo,a to je nešto sasvim drugo,mnogi arapi muslimani ga imaju.

Pa imaš gore i link o tome kako se to radi.
Nije dovoljno oženiti se, naravno.

[Saul Tigh]

samBogzna kaže:

sereš kakvom konverzijom,nemoguće,
židov može oženiti nežidovkinju,(nije doduše blagonaklono gledano,jer se mora ženiti iskljućivo pripadnicima svoje vjere)
ali ja kao nežidov ne mogu oženiti židovku i postati židov(nemoguće)

Pobrkao si Židove i muslimane, kod Židova se gleda majčina linija i potomak braka nežidova i Židovke se smatra Židovom, a ne obrnuto. Tumačeno po vjerskim propisima, naravno.

možeš dobiti izraelsko državljanstvo,a to je nešto sasvim drugo,mnogi arapi muslimani ga imaju.

Izrael je jedno, a judaizam drugo.

Poznatiji konvertiti na židovstvo :

Tom Arnold, actor (upon marrying Roseanne Barr)
Kate Capshaw, actress (upon marrying Steven Spielberg)
Sammy Davis, Jr., entertainer
Elizabeth Taylor, actress (upon marrying Eddie Fisher)

[rambi]

samBogzna kaže:

sereš kakvom konverzijom,nemoguće,
židov može oženiti nežidovkinju,(nije doduše blagonaklono gledano,jer se mora ženiti iskljućivo pripadnicima svoje vjere)
ali ja kao nežidov ne mogu oženiti židovku i postati židov(nemoguće)

možeš dobiti izraelsko državljanstvo,a to je nešto sasvim drugo,mnogi arapi muslimani ga imaju.

Who is a Jew?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

[Krushko]

rambi kaže:

Lažeš. Možeš postati i Židov. Konverzijom, kao i u prethodnim slučajevima... a tad postaješ i član naroda.

Pa to nam je odavno poznato , pa zar ste zaboravili kako su Khazari presli na judaizam

[enemy combantant]

Krushko kaže:

Pa to nam je odavno poznato , pa zar ste zaboravili kako su Khazari presli na judaizam

Khazari?Wow pa ja nisam jedini koji zna za tu teoriju.

[Naša Kvačica]

ice41000 kaže:

Arapi i Židovi su Semiti, dakle iste rase. Ima Židova i crne rase, tako da rasistički nije.

Nenadmašno.

[divizija]

u izraelu živi milijun i pol arapa sa svim građanskim pravima.
cionizam je pokret za uspostavu i očuvanje države izrael, međutim njih etnička, ili rasna čistoća nije opterećivala, niti su je ikad zastupali.
prije negoli počnete s palestinskim izbjeglicama trubit, treba reći da je u vrijeme kad se to desilo preko milijun židova PRISILNO došlo u izrael iz susjednih arapskih država odake su istjerani i oteta im imovina.

[MR-26-7]

rasisticna je u istoj mjeri u kojoj je teznja hrvata da imaju svoju drzavu rasisticna u odnosu na srbe, teznja srba da imaju svoju drzavu rasisticna u odnosu na hrvate, teznja bosanaca da imaju svoju drzavu rasisticna u odnosu na srbe i hrvate, albanaca u odnosu na makedonce, makedonaca u odnosu na grke, tutsija u odnosu na hutue, bantu crnaca u odnosu na pigmejce i zemljana u odnosu na zelene reptile

[enemy combantant]

Izrael je postojao do prije nekih 2000 godina,neznam sad tocan datum a nije ni bitno.Dosli su razni okupatori i vecina Zidova je emigrirala,postali su manjina.Na tim prostorima su stoljecima u miru zivjeli Arapi i Zidovi pod stalnim okupacijama svih mogucih sila.Tek kada su zidovi sa Zapada odlucili obnoviti svoju prastadu domovinu doslo je do problema.
Povezati cu slucaj Izraela sa necim u sto se mi Balkanci bolje razumijemo - Bosna.
Bosna je bila sastavni dio Hrvatskog teritorija sve do invazije Turaka prije nekih 600-700 godina.
Prema toj logici mi Hrvati koji nismo vecina u Bosni bi imali pravo okupirati je i prikljuciti Hrvatskoj bez problema.
Ja sam protiv takve politike ali eto primjecujem slicnosti i dvostruke standarde.

[divizija]

bosna nij bila sastavni dio hrvatskog teritorija prije turaka, već samo jedan dio. osim toga, bosanski muslimani su potomci autohrtonog stanovništva ovih postora.
židovi nisu nikad dobili sve što su imali prije 2000 godina. prvotno su prostali samo na pola teritorija palestinskog mandatnog područja (danas sigurno neće, nakon svih sranja).
priča se može usporedit s ovom- bila je država hrvatska, pa su došli turci i sveli je na ostatke ostataka i raselili hrvate. na taj prostor se naseljavaju srbi. no hrvati i dalje inzistiraju da je to hrvatska, makar su u srbu i lapcu 2% bili.
isto tako su rimljani i drugi raeelili židove. poslje se tu naseljavaju arapi, no židovi i dalje smatraju da imaju pravi na taj prostor.

[enemy combantant]

Da to oni misle.Ali Zemlja je prometna planeta,nitko nemoze rezervirati teritorij pa ga napustiti i onda ocekivati povratak.Nismo na parkiralistu.

[divizija]

nisu ga oni napustili, već su istjerani. miliš li ti da će hrvati i bošnjaci iz RS-a ikad, pa iz 2000. godina ako budu postojali ti narodi, to smatrat srpskim?
zašto su hrvati tražili uporno da im se vrate područja vojne krajine sa srpskom večinom, koja su pred turcima "napustili" tj. istjerani su i nije ih bilo par stoljeća? zašto su srb, korenica, dvor i lapac s 2% hrvata danas u hrvatskoj?

[enemy combantant]

Dobro,dobro nije to sve cisto jasno mi je.Ali sto se Izraela tice ljudi namaju pojma sto se tamo dogada.Da su granice ostale onakve kakvima ih je UN odredio 1947 nebi bilo problema ali Izrael se stalno siri.

Na papiru svi su gradani Izraela jednaki ali u praksi stvari su drugacije.

Vodje Izraela su ratni zlocinci koji su ponosni na svoja dijela.
Jedan od njih je rekao da Arapi trebaju emigrirati iz Izraela(Palestine) i da je jedini nacin da ostanu ako postanu robovi.

Takvi ljudi vode Izrael i to je temelj njihove politike.