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Vojna povijest i tehnologija Od praćke do ratova zvijezda.

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Old 15.04.2009., 01:13   #1
Messines Ridge

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Engineers from both sides had been tunnelling under the Messines ridge since 1915, until, by the spring of 1917, 21 huge mines had been laid under it totalling 450 tonnes of high explosive. At zero hour at 03:10 on June 7 1917, after 4 days of artillery bombardment, 19 of the allied mines were detonated killing 10,000 German troops in half a minute. Nine allied infantry divisions attacked and were supported by 72 tanks. They managed to achieve the initial objectives due to the huge mines and the fact that the German reserves were too far back to intervene.
Da li ima nešto o ovome u izvorima, da ih takoreći u par sekundi pogine 10000 , kako su to bili zgusnuti i kakva je to podzemna galerija bila za toliko mina nepojmljivo
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Old 15.04.2009., 01:29   #2
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Da li ima nešto o ovome u izvorima, da ih takoreći u par sekundi pogine 10000 , kako su to bili zgusnuti i kakva je to podzemna galerija bila za toliko mina nepojmljivo
Uh , pa to su vrlo veliki gubitci, ja mislim da bi se to vec znalo, da bi se Ameri ili Englezi hvalili o tome i da bi se vec neki film napravio o tome.
I to je jos bio WWI i spominju 450 tona eksploziva, cisto sumljam,
nigdje ne mogu pronaci tu informaciju. Jedino ako je tu bilo nekih otrova , hmmmmmmmmm . Bas me zanima misljenje nekog tko bolje o tome zna od mene.
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Old 15.04.2009., 01:44   #3
Ridge koliko znam znači greben a po ovim slikama

http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/fla...ckham_farm.jpg

http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/fla...roekmolen2.jpg

vidi se da je teren skoro potpuno ravan. Mogu zamisliti da da su kopali u osnovu negog uzvišenja ali ovo mi je vrlo čudno, jer bi morali da kopaju skoro vertikalno na dole u ulaznoj rupi
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Old 15.04.2009., 02:47   #4
Inače je ovo s tunelima ne baš rijedak način probijanja neprobojne neprijateljske obrane. Naročito u starim vremenima pri opasadama gradova kada je napadač podzemnim rovovima urušavao temelje zidina. Kako bi spriječili približavanje nepriajtelja, branitelji su kopali s svoje strane i nastojali presresti protivničke minere. Uz to obrana je kopala tunele kako bi probila obruč radi dopreme hrane, oružja, svega potrebnog (kao danas Palestinci prema Egiptu), a napadač je istom mjerom nastojao onemogućiti ih u tome.
Tako se uz onaj "pravi" na površini vodio pravi mali podzemni rat s tunelima. Mislim da je najpoznatiji slučaj nečega takvog velika opsada Beča iz 1683.

Čista zemlja bez stijena i kamena "živca", još ilovača, mislim da je dovoljno bilo dosegnuti dubinu od par metara na kojoj se plafon neće urušavati i nastaviti u vertikali s potpornjima. Jesu li Nijemci imali informacije o tome što im se sprema i poduzeli nekakve protumjere....očito nisu.

Sad me podsjetilo na kultni Veliki bijeg s S.McQuennom
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Old 15.04.2009., 03:05   #5
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Da li ima nešto o ovome u izvorima, da ih takoreći u par sekundi pogine 10000 , kako su to bili zgusnuti i kakva je to podzemna galerija bila za toliko mina nepojmljivo
http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/messines.htm

Slika eksplozije

Jedna od neeksplodiranih mina eksplodirala je 1955.godine,ubivši jednu kravu
http://www.firstworldwar.com/today/messinesmine1955.htm
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Old 15.04.2009., 12:52   #6
žalac, pantigana hvala vam !

Žalac, misliš li da se zemlja nije obrušavala ili da su postavljali potporne grede ? Kako li su merili udaljenost i kad su došli do ispod neprijateljskih položaja. Koliko je milona radnih sati bilo za to potrebno ...

Inače dobro su ih zajebali , dosta su ih i zarobili posle početnog šoka
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Old 15.04.2009., 13:31   #7
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žalac, pantigana hvala vam !

Žalac, misliš li da se zemlja nije obrušavala ili da su postavljali potporne grede ? Kako li su merili udaljenost i kad su došli do ispod neprijateljskih položaja. Koliko je milona radnih sati bilo za to potrebno ...

Inače dobro su ih zajebali , dosta su ih i zarobili posle početnog šoka
sigurno su morali postavljati potporne grede, inače ne bi mogli dalje par metara.
Kad se pogleda mreža rovova koja je izgrađena na zapadom forontu, s podzemnim prostorijama i hodnicima,ko pravi mali gradovi, vojnicima ovaj pothvat nije bio ništa fizički naporniji od svakodnevnog rovanja u blatu.
Samo što su uvjeti malo teži- zavlačenje u rupu, strah od urušavanja, nedostatak kisika i nikakva ventilacija. Svakodnevica rudara.

Kako su odredili kolika je potrebna dužina tunela, najvjerojatnije onako otprilike od oka, jer teško da im je netko s njemačke strane držao konopac. A i postoje neke stare metode procjene udaljenosti na terenu.
A s druge strane i pitanje je kolika je bila udaljenost do Nijemaca na tom dijelu bojišta jer je razmak između savezničkih i njemačkih rovova negdje bio i manji od 50m.
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Old 15.04.2009., 20:07   #8
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Da li ima nešto o ovome u izvorima, da ih takoreći u par sekundi pogine 10000 , kako su to bili zgusnuti i kakva je to podzemna galerija bila za toliko mina nepojmljivo
Evo, ima ovdje, kako to danas izgleda:

http://www.webmatters.net/belgium/ww1_mesen_1.htm
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Old 15.04.2009., 22:38   #9
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fane39 kaže: Pogledaj post
Evo, ima ovdje, kako to danas izgleda:

http://www.webmatters.net/belgium/ww1_mesen_1.htm
Hvala , tu se tek vidi šta je to Messines Ridge !

tuneli u bitci za Aras

Quote:
Since October 1916, the Royal Engineers had been working underground to construct tunnels for the troops.[12] The Arras region is chalky and therefore easily excavated; under Arras itself is a vast network (called the boves) of caverns, underground quarries, galleries and sewage tunnels. The engineers devised a plan to add new tunnels to this network so that troops could arrive at the battlefield in secrecy and in safety.[12] The scale of this undertaking was enormous: in one sector alone four Tunnel Companies (of 500 men each) worked around the clock in 18-hour shifts for two months. Eventually, they constructed 20 kilometres of tunnels, graded as subways (foot traffic only); tramways (with rails for hand-drawn trollies, for taking ammunition to the line and bringing casualties back from it); and railways (a light railway system).[12] Just before the assault the tunnel system had grown big enough to conceal 24,000 men, with electric lighting provided by its own small powerhouse, as well as kitchens, latrines, and a medical centre with a fully equipped operating theatre.[13][14][15] The bulk of the work was done by New Zealanders, including Maori and Pacific Islanders from the New Zealand Pioneer battalion,[13] and Bantams from the mining towns of Northern England

Assault tunnels were also dug, stopping a few metres short of the German line, ready to be blown open by explosives on Zero-Day.[12] In addition to this, conventional mines were laid under the front lines, ready to be blown immediately before the assault. Many were never detonated for fear that they would churn up the ground too much. In the meantime, German sappers (military engineers) were actively conducting their own underground operations, seeking out Allied tunnels to assault and counter-mine.[12] Of the New Zealanders alone, 41 died and 151 were wounded as a result of German counter-mining
Čak su izgradili i tramvajsku liniju pod zemljom

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache...&hl=en&ct=clnk

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The Arras-Vimy sector was conducive to tunnel excavation owing to the soft, porous yet extremely stable nature of the chalk underground. As a result, pronounced underground warfare had been an active feature of the Vimy sector since 1915. No fewer than 19 distinct crater groups existed along the Canadian front by 1917. Each group often containing a number of large craters all of which were the result of explosions caused by underground mine warfare.[43] Since their arrival in 1916, British Royal Engineer tunnelling companies had been actively engaged in offensive mining against German miners.[44]

In preparation for the assault, British tunnelling companies created extensive underground networks and fortifications. Twelve subways, up to 1.2 kilometres (0.75 mi) in length, were excavated at a depth of 10 metres (33 ft) and utilized to connect reserve lines to front lines, permitting soldiers to advance to the front quickly, securely and unseen. Often incorporated into subways were concealed light rail lines, hospitals, command posts, water reservoirs, ammunition stores, mortar and machine gun posts, and communication centres.[45] Many subways were also lit by electricity provided by generators. To protect some advancing troops from German machine gun fire as they crossed no man's land, eight specialized mine charges were laid at the end of the subways. These specialized mine charges were designed to allow troops to more quickly and safely enter an enemy trench system by creating an elongated trench-depth crater that spanned the entire length of no man's land.[44] In an effort to destroy some German fortified points before the assault the British tunnelling companies secretly laid 13 large explosive charges directly under German positions.[46] Of the explosive charges laid three mines were fired before the assault, another three mines and two specialized charges were fired at the start of the attack.[44]
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It was soon discovered that German tunnelling companies had taken advantage of the relative calm on the surface to build an extensive network of tunnels and deep mines from which they would attack French positions by setting off explosive charges underneath their trenches.[11] Royal Engineer Tunnelling Companies were immediately deployed along the front to combat the German mining operations.
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Nažalost nema ništa o tome kako su pronalaženi neprijateljski tuneli
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