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Old 08.04.2020., 17:13   #1
Vodik gorivo budućnosti ...

Svjestan sam da ćete me napasti što sam u naslovu stavio auto na voduik, al poznavajući naš mentalitet golfa četvorke,to je jedini način da privučem forumaše da bace oko.., ah zaboravio sam ovi na gospodarstvu voze samo 220 d, viša klasa..

vodik

- vodik je kemijski element koji u periodnom sustavu elemenata nosi simbol H
- vodik je plin bez boje, mirisa i okusa, 14,4 puta lakši od zraka. Neotrovan je
- zvijezde u glavnom nizu se uglavnom sastoje od vodika, u obliku plazme. elementarni vodik na zemlji je u vrlo malim količinama
- Ferdinand von Zeppelin je napravio letjelicu na vodik, koja je imala prvi let 1900., a kasnije je nazvana cepelin
- zbog toga što ga gravitacija teško može zadržati, vodik u gornjim dijelovima atmosfere izlazi u svemir...
- na Zemljinoj površini, vodik je treći najrašireniji element, uglavnom u obliku molekula vode i ugljikohidrata. Neke alge i bakterije stvaraju plin vodik
- Industrijski se najviše dobija iz zemnog plina, a rjeđe elektrolizom vode. Najviše se koristi u proizvodnji fosilnih goriva (hidrokrakiranje – povećanje kvalitete goriva) i za dobivanje amonijaka, u proizvodnji umjetnih goriva. U metalurgiji nije baš poželjan, jer mnoge metale čini lomljivim i krtim, pa stvara poteškoće u izgradnji cjevovoda i metalnih spremnika.


kako stvari stoje vrijeme je da naučite njemački, engleski već znate, pošto ću sigurno stavljati puno članaka na engleskom, a manje na njemačkom, nemam ja tu kaj pisati o tome kad je google pametniji i više zna
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Old 08.04.2020., 17:15   #2
Super tema!

Kakvo je stanje danas s tehnologijom?
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Old 08.04.2020., 17:17   #3
Hydrogen isn't the fuel of the future. It's already here

Hydrogen isn't the fuel of the future. It's already here

Quote:
When the leaders of the world’s economic powerhouses meet at this year’s G20 in Japan, two important decarbonization options are expected to finally garner the attention they deserve: carbon capture and hydrogen. The urgent need to reduce CO2 emissions means these two technologies – together and on their own – will be necessary alongside accelerated efficiency, exponential renewables growth and nuclear power.
Quote:
That Japan chose to highlight hydrogen and carbon capture at the G20 is not a surprise. Dependent on fuel imports, yet committed to fighting climate change, the country is a pioneer in hydrogen technology and a champion for carbon capture and storage. Looking ahead to 2050, hydrogen is the fuel of choice for its quest to reduce emissions from all sectors. Its car manufacturing industry, along with other industry players, has demonstrated a commitment to a hydrogen-powered future. Carbon capture facilities globally are using Japanese technologies to catch CO2. Japan has also teamed up with the Australian government to produce hydrogen in Australia for import to Japan. Next year, Japan is hosting the Summer Olympics, also dubbed the Hydrogen Olympics, and is expected to show great progress.
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Old 08.04.2020., 17:19   #4
korona je prilika da malo podijelimo informacije , jer sam zatvoren do 14stog, mislim mogu ja šetat po šumi, al mi se neda...
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Old 08.04.2020., 17:23   #5
Vodik u ovoj priči služi kao spremnik energija. Postoji neki drugi izvor energije koji se koristi da se stvari vodik. Meni kao laiku u toj priči nije jasno zašto se ne koriste ugljikovodici umjesto vodika. Oni se također mogu proizvoditi ako imaš neki izvor energije, a jednom kada ih proizvedeš imaš sve ostalo riješeno. Ne trebaš izmišljavati skladištenje, transport niti motore. Trebaš samo proizvesti ugljikovodike. Ne kužim kako to može biti teže nego riješiti bezbroj problema koje imaš sa vodikom.
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Old 08.04.2020., 17:24   #6
ABB brings fuel cell technology a step closer to powering large ships

ABB brings fuel cell technology a step closer to powering large ships

Quote:
The MOU between ABB and hydrogen technologies specialist Hydrogène de France (HDF) envisages close collaboration on the assembly and production of the fuel cell power plant for marine applications.

Building on an existing collaboration announced on June 27, 2018 with Ballard Power Systems, the leading global provider of proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell solutions, ABB and HDF intend to optimize fuel cell manufacturing capabilities to produce a megawatt-scale power plant for marine vessels. The new system will be based on the megawatt-scale fuel cell power plant jointly developed by ABB and Ballard, and will be manufactured at HDF’s new facility in Bordeaux, France.
Quote:
With shipping responsible for about 2.5 percent of the world’s total greenhouse gas emissions, there is an increased pressure for the maritime industry to transition to more sustainable power sources. The International Maritime Organization, a United Nations agency responsible for regulating shipping, has set a global target to cut annual emissions by at least 50 percent by 2050 from 2008 levels.
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Old 08.04.2020., 17:42   #7
The systemic role of hydrogen in a zero-carbon energy supply

nizozemska vlada je donijela 06,04,2020, strategiju u vodiku cijeli dokument, čak je kratak

The systemic role of hydrogen in a zero-carbon energy supply
Quote:
The Dutch energy system is set to change and the use of natural gas is set to decrease as a result of the energy transition. At present, electricity provides 20% of final energy consumption in the Netherlands.
The electrification of various applications will cause electricity's share in the final energy consumption to increase5.
Gases will nevertheless remain crucial6 in a robust and flexible energy system that is fully sustainable, affordable and reliable. These gases must be produced using zero-carbon methods.
The government recognises the need for a zero-carbon ‘system molecule’, as previously analysed and described inter alia by CIEP7 and Berenschot.
Alongside green gas, zero-carbon hydrogen forms an inextricable part of a zero-carbon energy system. First, some forms of final consumption cannot be made more sustainable without zero-carbon gases either from a technical perspective or from a cost effectiveness perspective. Zero-carbon gases are needed for some applications and for others constitute a potential cost-effective option alongside other technologies such as electrification.

The use of a gas, for example, is required to produce very high temperatures in industry. In addition, heavy-duty transport requires a source of fuel. In parts of the built environment, the transition to zero-carbon gas may constitute the most costeffective method of achieving improved sustainability.
It will also be required to supply the peak load of heat grids and hybrid heat pumps. Second, gas can be stored effectively for long periods of time (vital with regard to seasonal storage) and is relatively easy to transport.

Hydrogen specifically has the added benefit of contributing to better air quality.
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Old 08.04.2020., 17:58   #8
kužite, ovi planiraju do 2025 zatvoriti svoje elektrane na ugljen, al im se baš neda spušiti dividende, pa im je bolje uložit u hydrogen i nastaviti proizvoditi struju i toplu vodu za grijanje, odvratni kapitalizam, kako nas tlače, samo žele zarađivat na nama.... i onda će si skinut gretu s vrata...

Siemens and Uniper join forces on using ‘green hydrogen’ and promoting sector coupling

Quote:
German energy company Uniper is joining forces with Siemens Gas and Power to define what role hydrogen can play in the future evolution of its coal power plants.

The two companies have today signed a cooperation agreement for the development of projects on the decarbonisation of power generation and promoting sector coupling.

One focus of the planned cooperation is the production and use of ‘green hydrogen’ – in other words, hydrogen from renewable energy sources.

The companies intend to implement projects in the field together, addressing the entire value chain.

The scope of the new cooperation agreement also includes the evaluation of the potential of Uniper’s existing gas turbines and gas storage facilities for the use of hydrogen.

The focus of the work is to define what role hydrogen can play in the future evolution of Uniper’s coal power plants.

Uniper recently announced that it would close or convert its coal-fired power plants in Europe by 2025 at the latest.
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Old 08.04.2020., 18:11   #9
@diabolica - promijenio sam naslov, jer hydrogen ne znaci nista drugacije nego vodik.

Te bih zelio da rasprava bude sira od samo automobila... Mogu pobrisati ovo "auti na vodik"?
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Old 08.04.2020., 18:15   #10
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vamvam kaže: Pogledaj post
Vodik u ovoj priči služi kao spremnik energija. Postoji neki drugi izvor energije koji se koristi da se stvari vodik. Meni kao laiku u toj priči nije jasno zašto se ne koriste ugljikovodici umjesto vodika. Oni se također mogu proizvoditi ako imaš neki izvor energije, a jednom kada ih proizvedeš imaš sve ostalo riješeno. Ne trebaš izmišljavati skladištenje, transport niti motore. Trebaš samo proizvesti ugljikovodike. Ne kužim kako to može biti teže nego riješiti bezbroj problema koje imaš sa vodikom.
Hoces reci umjesto da se ih vadi iz zemlje, da ih se proizvodi iz zraka? Da moguce je, ali je nevjerojatno skupo - trenutacno skuplje cak i od vodika. Zahtijeva ogromne kolicine energije, a ne pomaze uopce zagadjenju zraka.

Kljucna rijec za guglanje e-fuels

Ako se i koriste, onda najbolje u avijaciji...
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Old 08.04.2020., 18:18   #11
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z_k kaže: Pogledaj post
@diabolica - promijenio sam naslov, jer hydrogen ne znaci nista drugacije nego vodik.

Te bih zelio da rasprava bude sira od samo automobila... Mogu pobrisati ovo "auti na vodik"?
znao sam, protivniče auta na vodu...
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Old 08.04.2020., 18:27   #12
Citam to kao ok

Ontopic, vodik ima mjesto u modernom drustvu - ali manje od onoga sto se neki nadaju. Najvise ga muci skala - nema sanse da ga se napravi dovoljno...

EDIT: da pocnem lijepiti linkove, sto bi bilo najzanimljivije za pocetak? Naci cu dobar nedavno objavljeni outlook od Bloomberg New Energy finance...
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Old 08.04.2020., 18:47   #13
nemoj mi bloomberg, već sam potrošil sve free članke, a od rajnigunga nemreš platit sabskripšn..

već vidim da bumo se ti i ja dopisivali ovdje...
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Old 08.04.2020., 18:49   #14
Ah, samo press release (puna studija nije besplatna):

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BloombergNEF kaže: Pogledaj post
The falling cost of making hydrogen from wind and solar power offers a promising route to cutting emissions in some of the most fossil fuel dependent sectors of the economy, such as steel, heavy-duty vehicles, shipping and cement.

Hydrogen Economy Outlook, a new and independent global study from research firm BloombergNEF (BNEF), finds that clean hydrogen could be deployed in the decades to come to cut up to 34% of global greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuels and industry – at a manageable cost. However, this will only be possible if policies are put in place to help scale up technology, and drive down costs.

The report’s findings suggest that renewable hydrogen could be produced for $0.8 to $1.6/kg in most parts of the world before 2050. This is equivalent to gas priced at $6-12/MMBtu, making it competitive with current natural gas prices in Brazil, China, India, Germany and Scandinavia on an energy-equivalent basis. When including the cost of storage and pipeline infrastructure, the delivered cost of renewable hydrogen in China, India and Western Europe could fall to around $2/kg ($15/MMBtu) in 2030 and $1/kg ($7.4/MMBtu) in 2050.

Kobad Bhavnagri, head of industrial decarbonization for BNEF and lead author of the report, said: “Hydrogen has potential to become the fuel that powers a clean economy. In the years ahead, it will be possible to produce it at low cost using wind and solar power, to store it underground for months, and then to pipe it on-demand to power everything from ships to steel mills.”

Hydrogen is a clean-burning molecule that can be used as a substitute for coal, oil and gas in a large variety of applications. But for its use to have net environmental benefits, it must be produced from clean sources, rather than from unabated fossil fuel processes – the usual method at present.

Renewable hydrogen can be made by splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen, using electricity generated by cheap wind or solar power. The cost of the electrolyzer technology to do this has fallen by 40% in the last five years, and can continue to slide if deployment increases. Clean hydrogen can also be made using fossil fuels if the carbon is captured and stored, but this is likely to be more expensive, the report finds.

Storing and moving hydrogen is challenging. For hydrogen to become as ubiquitous as natural gas today, a huge, coordinated program of infrastructure upgrades and construction would be needed. For instance, 3-4 times more storage infrastructure would need to be built at a cost of $637 billion by 2050 to provide the same level of energy security as natural gas. However, cost efficient large-scale options do exist and could be used to supply industrial customers with the clean gas. “If the clean hydrogen industry can scale up, many of the hard-to-abate sectors could be decarbonized using hydrogen, at surprisingly low costs,” Bhavnagri said.

The study found that a carbon price of $50/tCO2 would be enough to switch from coal to clean hydrogen in steel making by 2050, $60/tCO2 to use hydrogen for heat in cement production, $78/tCO2 for making chemicals like ammonia, and $145/tCO2 to power ships with clean fuel, if hydrogen costs reach $1/kg. Heavy trucks could also be cheaper to run on hydrogen than diesel by 2031, although batteries remain a cheaper solution for cars, buses and light trucks.
Najbolje bi ga bilo koristiti u ovim u najprljavijim industrijama kao sto je celik ili cement...
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Old 08.04.2020., 18:59   #15
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z_k kaže: Pogledaj post
Citam to kao ok

Ontopic, vodik ima mjesto u modernom drustvu - ali manje od onoga sto se neki nadaju. Najvise ga muci skala - nema sanse da ga se napravi dovoljno...

Zašto ne možemo proizvesti dovoljno vodika?
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Old 08.04.2020., 19:04   #16
auti na voduik, napokon

u 2017 je u njemačkoj bilo registrirano 329 osobnih automobila, plus 16 autobusa i dva kamijona od ukupno 62 miliona automobila na njemačkom tržištu...

u 2018 je za subvencionirano plaćanje apliciralo cca 90,000 stanovnika, a od toga novih 43 za aute na voduik

moji povjerljivi izvori iz welt am sontag-a, navode da je cijena vozila prepreka većoj prodaji auta na voduik......., jer se kreće između 79.000 € za toyotu mirai, i 69.000 € za hyundai nexo

tada je bilo samo 60 stanica za punjenje a planirali su do kraja godine doći do brojke 100
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Old 08.04.2020., 19:29   #17
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Alessio Rastani kaže: Pogledaj post
Super tema!

Kakvo je stanje danas s tehnologijom?
Danas je situacija iviše manje ista kao i prije 120 godina

Sad će me mnogi ismijati, ali ideja o vodiku kao pogonskom gorivu je stara 200 godina, krajem 19-og stoljeća krenulo se eksprementirat s pogonom na vodik, ali naišli su na za njih tada neriješibe probleme. Sto godina poslije na kraju 20-og stoljeća pogon na vodik postaje opet aktualan, tamo 1998-e se najavljivalo da će 2020-e biti mnogo automobila na vodik. Ali kao što znamo u 2020-oj uopće nema automobila na vodik u prodaji jer se naišlo na neriješive tehničke probleme. Nema zavjere naftnog lobija, jednostavno da se ulupa sav raspoloživi novac na svijetu za riješavanje problema pogona na vodik vrlo je upitno bii se to riješilo...
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Old 08.04.2020., 19:35   #18
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vamvam kaže: Pogledaj post
Vodik u ovoj priči služi kao spremnik energija. Postoji neki drugi izvor energije koji se koristi da se stvari vodik. Meni kao laiku u toj priči nije jasno zašto se ne koriste ugljikovodici umjesto vodika. Oni se također mogu proizvoditi ako imaš neki izvor energije, a jednom kada ih proizvedeš imaš sve ostalo riješeno. Ne trebaš izmišljavati skladištenje, transport niti motore. Trebaš samo proizvesti ugljikovodike. Ne kužim kako to može biti teže nego riješiti bezbroj problema koje imaš sa vodikom.
Nisam siguran jeli mislimo na isto, 1997-e Chrysler je na auto sajmu u Detroitu prikazao koncept automobila s gorivim ćelijama a koji je kao gorivo koristija najobičniji benzin. Benzin je ugljikovodik, znači nekako se benzin razdvaja na ugljik i vodik(ne pitajte me kako) i ostajao je vodik pomoću kojeg se onda proizvodila električna energija za pogon automobila. Emisija štetnih plinova gotovo da i nije postojala. Mislimo na istu stvar
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Old 08.04.2020., 19:43   #19
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Antikapitalist kaže: Pogledaj post
Zašto ne možemo proizvesti dovoljno vodika?
Zato sto je skupo i komplicirano (inherentne neefikasnosti). Najjednostavnije receno

Stvar je u tome, da postaje jeftinije sto imas vise jeftinije i ciste energije (postoje planove za divovske solarne elektrane u Africi, koje bi elektrolizom stvarale vodik) - a ako vec imas gomilu jeftine i ciste energije, onda je mozes i koristiti kao primarnu energiju (dizalice topline u kucama, elektricni auti, industrija...), umjesto da kompliciras proizvodnjom vodika
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Old 08.04.2020., 19:46   #20
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Nosonja_ kaže: Pogledaj post
Nisam siguran jeli mislimo na isto, 1997-e Chrysler je na auto sajmu u Detroitu prikazao koncept automobila s gorivim ćelijama a koji je kao gorivo koristija najobičniji benzin. Benzin je ugljikovodik, znači nekako se izdvaja vodik iz benzina(ne pitajte me kako) i ostajao je vodik pomoću kojeg se onda proizvodila električna energija za pogon automobila. Emisija štetnih plinova gotovo da i nije postojala. Mislimo na istu stvar
Ja sam mislio na proizvodnju ugljikovodika korištenjem drugih izvora energije, a ne nafte. Na taj način se koriste čisti izvori energije i energija se sprema u oblik koji se dalje lako upotrebljava i ne traži nikakve ekstremne prilagodbe.
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