Natrag   Forum.hr > Društvo > Politika

Politika Najstariji zanat na svijetu
Podforumi: Parlamentarni izbori 2024. Politička scena, Europska unija, Svijet, Blisko politici, Rat u Ukrajini

Odgovor
 
Tematski alati Opcije prikaza
Old 14.09.2004., 01:30   #1
Rabiji iz Judeje, Samarije i Gaze - dio II.

Kada se rascisti i otkljuca onaj topic problematicnog naslova (nadam se da ce se promijeniti i sam naslov topica jer je tendenciozan), ovaj se slobodno moze spojiti s njim. (https://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63737)

The rabbis' unified voice

By Meir Buzaglo


It would be good to create some order amid the storm kicked up by the manifesto published by the council of Yesha rabbis and the heads of hesder yeshivot, which combine military service and Torah studies. The question they raise is "whether to fight the enemy when an attack will kill civilians among whom are enemy combatants, or to refrain from fighting because of the civilians and endanger the lives of our civilians." In other words, assuming that it is permissible to hit terrorists via pinpoint assassination, is it also permissible to hit innocent bystanders?

The manifesto was published following tragic events in which Israeli soldiers were sacrificed to avoid hitting innocent Palestinians. Yet the overall impression is that the lesson the rabbis drew in response to a particular incident could, in its own right, create even more tragic occurrences in the future. At a time of so much bloodshed, it is wise to be cautious over anything that could remove the barriers preventing such violence from increasing. If the people of Israel indeed is not known for perpetrating cruel massacres - as the manifesto states - it is because during most of its history, either it did not possess the destructive power it currently holds, or it was smart enough to be vigilant and aware of aggressive drives: the reason was not because it relied on its "natural" qualities, as the manifesto puts it.

In general, limiting the complexity of the situation to whether it is preferable to kill innocent people to endanger our troops is woefully inadequate. For the sake of example, we can bring extreme cases - a ticking bomb that endangers many - that would make it permissible, and we can point to other cases that would prohibit it. This raises ethical, legal and halakhic questions that, contrary to what the manifesto implies, do not always boil down to the same answer.

The terrorists do in fact exploit these wrestlings of conscience when they hide among civilians, but in any event, there are brakes that need to be applied that I did not find in the manifesto, and therefore, it strikes me as of little value. I would propose to whoever is in a hurry to press the trigger to imagine that the building he is about to storm contains innocent Jews. Such a mental exercise is not a fail-safe recipe for preventing the killing of innocent people - witness the mass carnage in Beslan - but, at the very least, it places matters on an ethical footing that does not distinguish among blood.

Having said all of that, I do not approve of the instinctive manner in which some people on the left responded to the rabbis' manifesto. Contrary to the claim expressed by Ze'ev Segal, legal commentator for Haaretz, the argument that "our lives take precedence" does not contain a speck of incitement. Contrary to MK Yossi Sarid, I do not believe that the manifesto's signatories are ayatollahs. The charge that they are coloring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the primordial hues of Israel's war against Amalek is unfair. You can only attack a person for the things he has said.

Nonetheless, it's hard to blame those who didn't understand the rabbis. The manifesto talks about "being cautious with human lives," but I can't recall a case in which these rabbis protested against harm to a non-Jew. Where is the manifesto forbidding the humiliation of Arabs at checkpoints? Other miscarriages of justice concerning Jews also are met by their silence. Where is the outcry over the criminal nonpayment of salaries to numerous Jews and Arabs? Where is the critique of the question whether Jews may set up provocative settlements that endanger the lives of innocent children?

Where is their contribution to inter-faith dialogue, or at the very least to preventing the escalation of the strife? When nearly all the time we hear the rabbis speak in a single voice, the "response of Judaism" becomes predictable and ineffective, and it explains - though does not justify - the instinctive response.

The writer is a lecturer in the Hebrew University's philosophy department
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) Derviš aka Musliman.hr / Izrael 101
Kadija te tuži, kadija ti sudi / Case study / Legitimna kritika izraelske fiskalne politike / Izrael i UN / Arapsko-izraelski sukob
rambi is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 01:33   #2
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo not again !
Škorpion_07 is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 01:34   #3
Prijevod?
Ken is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 01:35   #4
Ne brini... ovaj je posto postao novi topic samo zato jer je pripadajuci zakljucan dok se ne ocisti...

https://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63737
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) Derviš aka Musliman.hr / Izrael 101
Kadija te tuži, kadija ti sudi / Case study / Legitimna kritika izraelske fiskalne politike / Izrael i UN / Arapsko-izraelski sukob
rambi is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 03:58   #5
__________________

There is no devil it is only god when he is drunk
ADEX is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 04:39   #6
Pozdrav iz Ljubljane.

Poll: One in five right wing supporters justify assassination
Ma'ariv, 13 September 2004

A poll conducted by Haifa University’s political science department shows that almost a fifth (18.5%) of those supporting nationalist right wing policies would be willing to condone political assassination “if there was no other means to derail a dangerous policy”. Nearly 15% would actually be willing to contemplate such a step if they were convinced it was the only way to prevent a disaster that could seriously jeopardize the existence of the state.

An additional quarter justify harassing and intimidating politicians in order to coerce them into not supporting “dangerous policies that could lead to a disaster”, but would not justify physical violence.

These figures show a seven percent increase in the number of people willing to sanction political violence in order to achieve their aims.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm...articleID=11036
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/782/756.html (Hebrew, also notes that 4% of Israel's "Jewish citizens" believe Rabin's killer should be pardoned)*

...

Comment: This should be perhaps placed in the context of this sort of thing: http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/gallery/168/526.jpg (image shows the head of the Disengagement Authority, Yonatan Basi, with the words "We will not forgive" in red).

Or this, http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/gallery/168/524.jpg (Sharon being called "The Dictator").

Kach was also out in force as well, with their "Buy From Jews Only" T-Shirts etc.


* Assuming they believe that person to be Yigal Amir, as some don't - just check out the "book stall" that was in Zion Square during the demonstration - the idiots who run that have been condemned many times in Ma'ariv, not that anybody cares, or even notices.


http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/782/211.html (Hebrew, didn't check the English)

Kach is mentioned in this article, noting that they (mostly teenagers, it appears) were out wearing their yellow T-Shirts and "even selling the books of Barry Chamish" at a nearby stall, which I mentioned above.

Regarding Chamish, an article by Shalom Yerushalemi in Ma'ariv last year (Nov 03) noted that the sellers of his works are usually to be found outside Likud conventions, and that interest in his works is "becoming greater" these days.

He's a grade A loon, in case you didn't know - the "father of conspiracy theories of the Rabin assassination". To quote Shalom:

"(The) conference guests, many members of likud HQ and many activists happily buy this doctine, thirsty for the argument that his GSS security guard shot Rabin, the cover of his latest work, "Save Israel", also discusses the slaughter carried out by Baruch Goldstein at the Tomb of the Patriachs. Chamish claims that Goldstein was a naive doctor, the GSS that entered the Tomb carried out the massacre and another border guard quickly left the scene, abandoning Goldstein to the Arab worshippers who beat him to death with a fire-extinguisher. The GSS, according to Chamish, sought to kill the right-wing by a crazed provocation"

The above is taken from an article discussing how the extreme right in Israel justifies transfer, steals the Nazi slogan "Buy From Jews Only" (i.e. inverting it) and hates Sharon with a passion (article is called the "Alternative Likud", and focuses on the Manhigut Yehudit -"Jewish Leadershp" group).

You can see a picture of this book stall in the link provided BTW.

As for Kach being outlawed, that's a joke. It's not like the GSS is going to round up the whole of Bat-Ayin settlement, and that's even assuming they could enter there in the first place (probably not, given that GSS informers in the Yehudit division are often publically exposed and ran out of there and other places with threats of violence). Kach is basically forbidden from standing for election, which is meaningless, since Herut isn't, and is essentially the same.

To nije moj post, ali vrlo je smijesan
flowers is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 10:34   #7
Antisemitsko čudovište na forumu

Užas...Otišla sam na onu temu i to je prestrašno...Antisemitizam u čistom obliku...Mislim da IMF mora nešto poduzeti...Meni upisi tih likova nisu zvučali kao neukusna zafrkancija već iskonska mržnja...Ne mogu vjerovati da nakon toliko godina poslije Holokausta netko može ovakve stvari javno izreći...

I još nešto, od lokalnih boraca za ljudska prava na ovome forumu, ni traga ni glasa...

rambi
__________________
Zagrebačkim ulicama
crtica is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 12:18   #8
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Poll: One in five right wing supporters justify assassination
Ma'ariv, 13 September 2004

A poll conducted by Haifa University’s political science department shows that almost a fifth (18.5%) of those supporting nationalist right wing policies would be willing to condone political assassination “if there was no other means to derail a dangerous policy”.
Zbunjuje te cinjenica da je ljudima u Izraelu omoguceno da slobodno izrazavaju svoje misljenje? Pa zar to nije jedno od obiljezja demokratskog drustva? S ogradom da postoje dvije zabranjene zidovske desnicarske stranke/pokreta - jer, u demokraciji se pravi razlika izmedju slobode govora i govora mrznje.

Inace, originalni autor ovog clanka je zaboravio napisati koliki je postotak u Izraelu onih koji podupiru nationalist right wing policies
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) Derviš aka Musliman.hr / Izrael 101
Kadija te tuži, kadija ti sudi / Case study / Legitimna kritika izraelske fiskalne politike / Izrael i UN / Arapsko-izraelski sukob
rambi is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 12:41   #9
Red face

S tugom u srcu konstatiram da sam propusto Part I !

Gdje ga mogu naci ? Unaprijed zahvalan.
dobri_bosnjan is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 12:43   #10
Quote:
Ken kaže:
Prijevod?
Ma što ?!
!
__________________
Ne odlučuje onaj koji izlazi na referendum, nego onaj koji broji glasove.
Jalnuški Diletant is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 13:03   #11
Quote:
dobri_bosnjan kaže:
S tugom u srcu konstatiram da sam propusto Part I !

Gdje ga mogu naci ? Unaprijed zahvalan.
https://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63737
duvdevan is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 13:15   #12
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Pozdrav iz Ljubljane.
U kratko o nekima koji se spominju...

Barry Chamish je klaun, nesto poput izraelskog ILa, prije nego sto je postao "strucnjak za ubojstvo Rabina" bio je strucnjak za NLOove i o tome napisao par knjiga i tonu clanaka. Danas tvrdi da je Peres ubio Rabina po nalogu Vatikana... Tipa treba u ludaru.

Kah i kahane haj su zabranjene kao teroristicke organizacije. Puno kahovaca sijedi u zatvorima, neki su osudjeni, neki u administrative detention. I simboli stranke su zabranjeni, kahovci to zaobilaze tako da stampaju na njima portret meira kahane a ne simbol pokreta, sto nije zabranjeno. Kahanine i chamishove knjige nisu zabranjene jer nisu protuzakonite, dok, recimo Baruh haGever, knjiga koja hvali baruha goldsteina je zabranjena...

Sto se tice igala amira, sjedi u zatvoru i nece tako skoro van. A sto se tice atmosfere, gadna je, ali, valjda ce proc bez nasilja... Ipak je 99% populacije jasno da je bilo sto u smjeru gradjanskog rata daleko gore od bilo cega vezanog za napustanje ili nenapustanje gaze, s koje god strane politickog spektra bili. A ovih 1% (ekstremna ljevica i desnica) nemaju bas puno veze sa planetom zemljom...
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr
Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
UmpaUmpa is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 13:47   #13
Moram progovorit ovdje i ja (valjda me neće proglasit opet antisemitom)... pa pobogu ljudi koji je vama? Pa ovoliko nisam čuo o židovima u životu koliko na ovom chatu...židovi ono židovi ovo... mislim da nam preostaje samo jedno: cijeli svijet na koljena i molimo židove za oprost, da nam oproste ako ih krivo pogledamo na cesti, ako im naplatimo 5 lipa više itd itd itd

Hebote imam osjećaj da nešto krivo ne izgovorim nešto protiv židova jer će me odmah proglasiti zločincem i kako kršim ljudska prava pa će se moji budući naraštaji morati ispričavati sljedećih 800 godina židovskom rodu.

Moje mišljenje je jednostavno : židovski narod ima najjači lobi u svijetu (pa tak i na ovom chatu) i mislim da se to masno iskorištavaju i cijelo vrijeme plaču.

To je moje skromno mišljenje koje sam morao dati (valjda neće opet pojedinci čupat moje stare postove i gurat mi ih na nos -kao ono ja sam ovakav i onakav)

Sve u svemu pozdrav svim ljudima dobre volje bili oni židovi ili ne
__________________
juriel nije član nijedne javne grupe a bome niti jedne političke stranke
juriel is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 14:07   #14
clanak iz maariva

Quote:
Netanyahu calls for plebiscite

Says referendum best way to avoid danger of civil war, denies pulling postponement stunt
Yifat Zohar and Menahem Rahat

Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he supports a referendum over the disengagement.

Speaking at a Rosh Hashana toast at the treasury, he said that given the growing divide over this issue, and the increasing talk of large-scale resistance and even civil war, the best way to avoid this would be to expedite legislation enabling the government to call a plebiscite. He said such legislation could be passed within a few weeks, and the referendum itself could and should take place within 6-8 weeks. He said that if Sharon agreed, he would come out in favor of disengagement, and actively campaign for it.

He said that given recent statements by leaders of the settlers’ movement, that they would accept the verdict of the nation, whatever it is, he said that it would be preferable to undertake the disengagement after the public had made it clear that it was in favor of such a step. He said that this would limit violent resistance to the marginal fringes.

He denied allegations it was a delaying tactic, saying that a 6-8 we3ek delay was insignificant, since in any case it was doubtful much could be done by then.

Sharon criticized the initiative, saying that Israel’s constitutional system does not allow for a referendum, which would compromise the Knesset’s sovereignty. “It and it alone has the authority to decide, and this is how it should remain”, he said.
http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?...rticleID=11035
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr
Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
UmpaUmpa is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 15:06   #15
Rambi, citam ovaj forum vec godinu dana, ali ne govorim hrvatski.

Dalje:

There is a group called Manhigut Yehudit in Israel which is also very close to Kach ideology (actually they're much smarter), and they have a gleaming new office in Jerusalem. Nobody is touching them - hell, deputy GOI ministers even go to their rallies in the settlements.

I am assuming however herut is part of the national union constituency... sorry for the stupidity... is it?

Kind of. Herut is an off-shoot of National Union (Ichud Leumi). It is basically part of the Revisionist strand of Israeli politics (it was established by Begin). During the period 1948-70's it formed the dominant parts of the right-wing, later Gahal (merger of Herut and Liberal Party) and later the Likud.

The former leader of Kach stood for the party in the Jan 2003 elections. Now, I personally do not think he should have been prevented from doing so, but it makes a mockery of the claim that Kach is outlawed - technically yes, in reality, not really.

From what you say it appears Israel kind of coddles and cherishes this crew?

Not really. They obviously hate Labor with a passion (just as they hated The Alignment), but they also despise Sharon. Any support is usually implicit or from certain individuals within state institutions (like the Housing Ministry).

How exactly are they different from Hamas extremists? Islamic Jihad? Did they ever back a two state solution even?

The ideology is quite similar. There was a period around 1965 when Herut rhetorically dropped claims to "the Land of Israel" but that was meaningless and only because Herut was merging with another party which did not have such claims. Herut has never, not even with one word, or one iota ever backed a two-state solution. Nor has Ichud Leumi (which is a merger between Moledet ("Homeland" -connotations are basically "Fatherland" or "Motherland"- and a couple of other marginal parties).

To quote from both platforms (in Hebrew, since they can be different in the English):

"A Palestinian state between Jordan and the sea would endanger the State of Israel", and "no additional political entity will be allowed to rise between Jordan to the sea". The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
('Security', Maza/Party Political Platform, National Union, http://www.leumi.org.il/maza.asp?su...;ון)

This is slightly less extreme than Herut, which claims that:

"Jordan is an inseperable and integral part of the Land of Israel"
('Politics-Security, Jordan', Maza/Party Political Platform, Herut, http://www.herut.org.il/hebrew_new/maza.html).

The official position of the Likud Central Committee is also rejection of a Palestinian state, and Labor's is kind of ambiguous on where a Palestinian state should be.

The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).

With the what am I saying probably not any solution that involves an independent Palestinain state but for the "last resort solution" jeopardizes judea and samaria afterall. So while they might be on a par with Hamas and Islamic Jihad they fall below par of fatah and the PLO?

Sure. Labor and Likud still fall below Fatah and the PLO. Labor didn't even come close until the 1993 declaration of principles - a stand the PLO had reached at least in 1988, but arguably in 1976.

Remember that in the peace treaty with Egypt, the Likud refused to refer to the "West Bank", instead preferring "Judea and Samaria", and would not mention "Palestinians", preferring "the Arabs of the Land of Israel".

Israeli terrorism however is righteous, but only among honest partisans (say, Begin/Shamir). The more common position is that Israeli "terror" does not exist, by definition.

The latter point appears to be incomprehensible to these people whenever it is pointed out, at least in my experience.


Umpa Umpa, hvala za odgovor.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...?t=6870&page=2
flowers is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 15:53   #16
Quote:
flowers kaže:
There is a group called Manhigut Yehudit in Israel which is also very close to Kach ideology (actually they're much smarter), and they have a gleaming new office in Jerusalem. Nobody is touching them - hell, deputy GOI ministers even go to their rallies in the settlements.
prilicno su desni pa dijele dobar dio ideologije sa ekstremnom desnicom ali nisu presli crtu nasilja, otvorenog rasizma, poticanja nasilja, itd, pa su legalan pokret. Demokracija, jebiga.
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Kind of. Herut is an off-shoot of National Union (Ichud Leumi). It is basically part of the Revisionist strand of Israeli politics (it was established by Begin). During the period 1948-70's it formed the dominant parts of the right-wing, later Gahal (merger of Herut and Liberal Party) and later the Likud.
Upravo suprotno, ihud je koalicija koja ukljucuje herut.
Quote:
flowers kaže:
The former leader of Kach stood for the party in the Jan 2003 elections. Now, I personally do not think he should have been prevented from doing so, but it makes a mockery of the claim that Kach is outlawed - technically yes, in reality, not really.

From what you say it appears Israel kind of coddles and cherishes this crew?
Izbori su dokazali suprotno, nije dobio, niti je bilo koji drugi kahanist, a izasli su na izbore. I baruh marzel nikada nije optuzen (proveo je godine u administrative detention, tj, preventivnom hapsu), i tvrdio je da je reformiran, pa nije bilo zakonske osnove da ne ide na izbore. Opet, demokracija, pravna drzava...
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Not really. They obviously hate Labor with a passion (just as they hated The Alignment), but they also despise Sharon. Any support is usually implicit or from certain individuals within state institutions (like the Housing Ministry).
Tocno, to pokazuje koliko su mainstream...
Quote:
flowers kaže:
How exactly are they different from Hamas extremists? Islamic Jihad? Did they ever back a two state solution even?
Ako je two state solution mjerilo, onda molim u tu grupu svrstati i Chomskog i Edward Saida....
Quote:
flowers kaže:
"A Palestinian state between Jordan and the sea would endanger the State of Israel", and "no additional political entity will be allowed to rise between Jordan to the sea". The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
('Security', Maza/Party Political Platform, National Union, http://www.leumi.org.il/maza.asp?su...;ון)
No shit. A kao ne bi... Kao sto je ova intifada dokazala...

This is slightly less extreme than Herut, which claims that:
Quote:
flowers kaže:
"Jordan is an inseperable and integral part of the Land of Israel"
('Politics-Security, Jordan', Maza/Party Political Platform, Herut, http://www.herut.org.il/hebrew_new/maza.html).
Eh, da je netko jos i procitao... Povjesno i geografski ali nemaju teritorijalnih pretenzija na jordan...
Quote:
flowers kaže:
The official position of the Likud Central Committee is also rejection of a Palestinian state, and Labor's is kind of ambiguous on where a Palestinian state should be.
To je i Edward Saidovo stanoviste, i stanoviste komunista...
Quote:
flowers kaže:
The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).
Nije istina.
Quote:
flowers kaže:
With the what am I saying probably not any solution that involves an independent Palestinain state but for the "last resort solution" jeopardizes judea and samaria afterall. So while they might be on a par with Hamas and Islamic Jihad they fall below par of fatah and the PLO?
Sto bi ovo trebalo znaciti? Izjava nema nikakvog smisla...
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Sure. Labor and Likud still fall below Fatah and the PLO. Labor didn't even come close until the 1993 declaration of principles - a stand the PLO had reached at least in 1988, but arguably in 1976.
A ni ova.
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Remember that in the peace treaty with Egypt, the Likud refused to refer to the "West Bank", instead preferring "Judea and Samaria", and would not mention "Palestinians", preferring "the Arabs of the Land of Israel".
Wow. Big deal. Izraz zapadna obala je izmisljen sa jordanskom okupacijom podrucja '48. Zasto bi koristili jordanski izraz kad u svim ranijim mapama ljepo pise judeja i samarija?
Quote:
flowers kaže:
Israeli terrorism however is righteous, but only among honest partisans (say, Begin/Shamir). The more common position is that Israeli "terror" does not exist, by definition.
BS. Kako to da su 2 zidovske stranke zabranjene kao teroristicke organizacije?
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) derviš aka musliman.hr
Nemojte kriviti puni mjesec, židovi su krivi
UmpaUmpa is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 18:01   #17
so,now that you helped us confirm the fact that israel is a democracy,where people are allowed to have different opinions,i am curious to know if you will follow this with your opinion on,let's say, presence of arab parties in israeli political life and their presence in the knesset?
i am sure , people on the forum would like to know their political programs and explanation of a possibility that some of their members regularly speak to the public,at the knesset or through israeli media,comparing IDF with the nazis,or calling the defence minister or the prime minister ''a war criminal''?without being hurt or thrown to jail(let alone being hanged, or having their hands cut off...)


Quote:
flowers kaže:
How exactly are they different from Hamas extremists? Islamic Jihad? Did they ever back a two state solution even?
this is just another,pathetic, attempt to justify suicide bombings and attacks on israeli civilians.although,ther is a certain number of forum members that accept this rationale it is ,simply,a lie.
better luck,next time.



Quote:
flowers kaže:
The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).

what's your point?that if labor or likud or anyone else for that matter,have reservations about the palestinian state(and it's impact on israeli security,and it's very existance)they are...what? terrorists?it is the palestinians(including arafat), whose constant referring to all of israel, as occupied palestinian land, that instigate those reservations,suicide bombings notwithstanding.


Quote:
flowers kaže:
The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
gee... i wander what this ''bitter experience of oslo'' might be?

Quote:
flowers kaže:
Labor and Likud still fall below Fatah and the PLO. Labor didn't even come close until the 1993 declaration of principles - a stand the PLO had reached at least in 1988, but arguably in 1976.
yeah,right...


hamas says,all of palestine is ours and we want to liberate it from the river to the sea,in one blow.but,fatah, which leads the plo,feels that a fased plan must be pursued.both sides agree on the final objective.the difference between them is on the way to get there.rafiq natshe,a member of the fatah central comimtee and plo representative to saudi arabia. 26.12.1989. al-quabas newspaper,kuwait

the palestinian people's struggle, will continue until the complete liberation of the palestinian land...the palestinian people's struggle ought to be assisted until the complete liberation of palestine from the (jordan) river to the sea.
yasser arafat,quoted by Libian news agency,may 1st 1990.

...sooner or later,we must force israeli society to collaborate with a greater society,our own arab society,and later we will bring about the gradual dissolution of the zionist entity.
feisal al husseini, november 12th,1992. al-rai newspaper,jordan( just weeks before being recived in the white house by president bush in december 1992.)
duvdevan is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 18:22   #18
A senior Palestinian official said the Palestinians recognize Israel's existence as a Jewish state within the 1967 borders, and do not aspire to change its demographic balance drastically .

The statement by Jibril Rajoub, Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's national security adviser, appears to be the first reference by a senior Palestinian official to Israel as a Jewish state and to its demographic issue.

Rajoub was interviewed Monday for a new Geneva Initiative campaign, entitled "We have a partner." His direct reference to Israel as a Jewish state and to its demography took the Geneva Initiative people by surprise.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...ID=0&listSrc=Y
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) Derviš aka Musliman.hr / Izrael 101
Kadija te tuži, kadija ti sudi / Case study / Legitimna kritika izraelske fiskalne politike / Izrael i UN / Arapsko-izraelski sukob
rambi is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 14.09.2004., 18:32   #19
Quote:
flowers kaže:
"A Palestinian state between Jordan and the sea would endanger the State of Israel", and "no additional political entity will be allowed to rise between Jordan to the sea". The "bitter experience of Oslo" teaches that such a result would be a "strategic threat" to Israel.
('Security', Maza/Party Political Platform, National Union, http://www.leumi.org.il/maza.asp?su...;ון)
Isn't it written, somwhere in that document, that they consider Jordan to be a palestinian state? I am not their voter, but it wouldn't be fair to equalize them with those who doesn't agree on any state for the Jews at all.

Quote:
flowers kaže:
The only party in Israel that basically supports a Palestinian state with little or no reservations is Yachad (a merger with Meretz). They mention the Green Line etc (at least in their draft manifesto, which I checked before the party was officially formed, so it might have changed, but I doubt it).
Not true (I won't repeat previous explanations on this question); but, the only way, until today (see Haaretz) that Palestinian side was ready to accept Israel was [b]the full implementation on their mantra called the right of return, which would make yet another Palestine, just called, for the time being - Israel.

By the way, which would be the Arab counterpart of Yachad... or Meretz?
__________________
Islam dozvoljava da se prekine zadana riječ ako se pojavi nešto korisnije i bolje od toga. (c) Derviš aka Musliman.hr / Izrael 101
Kadija te tuži, kadija ti sudi / Case study / Legitimna kritika izraelske fiskalne politike / Izrael i UN / Arapsko-izraelski sukob
rambi is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Old 15.09.2004., 00:30   #20
Quote:
UmpaUmpa kaže:
Ako je two state solution mjerilo, onda molim u tu grupu svrstati i Chomskog i Edward Saida....

To je i Edward Saidovo stanoviste, i stanoviste komunista...
Nije istina.

BS. Kako to da su 2 zidovske stranke zabranjene kao teroristicke organizacije?
Let's not be silly here. Herut split from Ichud Leumi a while ago and ran on it's own ticket in the Jan 2003 elections.

Another copy/paste from the author of the original post:

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/783/309.html (same information was on Ynet earlier in the day - author is Tal-Yamin Wolvovitz).

Article has a statement from Kahane Chai ("Kahane Lives"), and a quote from the activist Itamar Ben-Gavi.

The latter states that the extreme right has "never hid" it's desire to get rid of Sharon, but would prefer him to end up in an "old folk's home", because he's so useless that he isn't even worth "a bullet".

The article is summed up in the title: 'Police investigating threats to life of Sharon and head of Disengagement Authority'.

....
I read Arutz Sheva daily and I also saw a threat on Israel forum 10 days ago, not a serious one though, check out Andak, he's nice, but it takes 10 days to get an account there.
flowers is offline  
Odgovori s citatom
Odgovor


Tematski alati
Opcije prikaza

Kreni na podforum




Sva vremena su GMT +2. Trenutno vrijeme je: 21:13.