Europa prije oko 10.000 do oko 5.000 godina

[Wikiceha]

Zoran Oštrić kaže:

Rekoh već da me ta tema baš i ne zanima. Nemoj od mene očekivati da u to dublje prodirem! Također me crtanje zemljopisnih karata ne zanima osobito.

Nitko od tebe ne traži da crtaš, ali jbg. mislio sam da su barem osnove genetike zanimljive.
Ok, sorry

Zoran Oštrić kaže:

Nešto naravno i naučim, kao što valjda nauče i drugi koji s malo pažnje čitaju, evo ovo što si sad rekao, korigirajući prethodno rečeno, da se žene više sele, ali muškarci na veće udaljenosti, to je zanimljivo.

Je

Zoran Oštrić kaže:

No, opet stoji, ova dva rada gore ne bave se Y-haplogrupama i ne zaključuju na osnovu njih, a imamo zanimljive podatke, da su naseljenici na području Letonije došli, izgleda, sa zapada a ne iz obližnjih ruskih stepa, dok su ovi iz Rusije djelomice išli okolo i naseljavali južnu Skandinaviju sa sjevera, gdje su se miješali s doseljenicima s juga. Naravno, ne znam koliko su ti zaključci pouzdani i konačni. Broj uzoraka je, koliko vidim, mali.

Maleni uzorci ne govore ništa.
Koliko znam, Balti i (sjeverni) Ugrofinci imaju sličan genetski mix, a skandinavci potpuno drugačiji.
Pogledaj ovu kartu;
http://i.imgur.com/GLL0M9y.png
Ljubičasto ti je ta poveznica.

Znam rekao si da ne voliš ni karte, ni genetiku, ali jbg
Nije s eupedije...

Zoran Oštrić kaže:

Eupediju uređuje amater, koliko sam vidio, kad sam se malo zainteresirao, razni podaci su zbrda-zdola nabacani, pouzdanost je nepoznata, nikakvi se zaključci iz bilo čega tu objavljenog ne mogu izvlačiti, bar to ne mogu korektno raditi amateri. Tako da na to ne obraćam pažnju, nego gledam isključivo objavljene znanstvene radove. (Naravno, ako vas veseli, neću vas sprečavati, nisu to ustaše i partizani! )

Ma sve ok.

[Zoran Oštrić]

Wikiceha kaže:

Maleni uzorci ne govore ništa.

A nešto valjda ipak govore, kad ljudi prave te analize i objavljuju znanstvene radove! Ako vidiš neki znanstveni rad u kojem se ovi gore zaključci osporavaju, javi! to me recim ozanima.

[Wikiceha]

Zoran Oštrić kaže:

A nešto valjda ipak govore, kad ljudi prave te analize i objavljuju znanstvene radove! Ako vidiš neki znanstveni rad u kojem se ovi gore zaključci osporavaju, javi! to me recim ozanima.

Ak naletim na kaj, stavim

[mozak_free]

Haak et all 2015, Nature
Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

Abstract
We generated genome-wide data from 69 Europeans who lived between 8,000–3,000 years ago by enriching ancient DNA libraries for a target set of almost 400,000 polymorphisms. Enrichment of these positions decreases the sequencing required for genome-wide ancient DNA analysis by a median of around 250-fold, allowing us to study an order of magnitude more individuals than previous studies1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and to obtain new insights about the past. We show that the populations of Western and Far Eastern Europe followed opposite trajectories between 8,000–5,000 years ago. At the beginning of the Neolithic period in Europe, ∼8,000–7,000 years ago, closely related groups of early farmers appeared in Germany, Hungary and Spain, different from indigenous hunter-gatherers, whereas Russia was inhabited by a distinctive population of hunter-gatherers with high affinity to a ∼24,000-year-old Siberian6. By ∼6,000–5,000 years ago, farmers throughout much of Europe had more hunter-gatherer ancestry than their predecessors, but in Russia, the Yamnaya steppe herders of this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European hunter-gatherers, but also from a population of Near Eastern ancestry. Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ∼4,500 years ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ∼75% of their ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe from its eastern periphery. This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least ∼3,000 years ago, and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans. These results provide support for a steppe origin9 of at least some of the Indo-European languages of Europe.

Evo pa čitajte....

[Zoran Oštrić]

mozak_free kaže:

Haak et all 2015, Nature
Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

Evo pa čitajte....

U ovakvim slučajevima, vrlo je korsno, po mom iskustvu, potražiti je li pisalo o tom radu na portalu sciencedaily.com. Naime, tu daju prikaze, koji su pojednostavljeni toliko da budu shvatljivijih upućenom laiku, dakle ne ekspertu, ali ni bilo kojem prosječnom gledatelju TV. Tu se ekserti trude objasniti širi kontekt nekoga rada, koji je samim mičanjem rada ili njegovog sažetka laiku teško dokušiv.

To se lako nađe, gugla se ime rada uz dodatak "site: sciencedaily.com". I stvarno sam odmah našao prikaz. Možete vidjeti da se zaista lijepo objašnjava o čemu se tu radi.

Genetic study revives debate on origin and expansion of Indo-European languages in Europe

UAB has participated in a research published in Nature which identified a massive migration of Kurgan populations (Yamna culture) which went from the Russian steppes to the centre of Europe some 4,500 years ago, favouring the expansion of Indo-European languages throughout the continent.

Migration processes allow scientists to determine whether or not to give support to the linguistic and archaeological theories on the diffusion of languages and cultural material throughout history. In the case of Europe, one of the still unsolved enigmas is the origin and diversification of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language, considered the source of the majority of languages spoken today in Europe, Asia and America.

In contrast to the Anatolian hypothesis, which defends that the diversification of PIE occurred some 8,500 years ago, when the first farmers from the Near East (currently Turkey) brought it to Europe, there is the Kurgan hypothesis, which proposes that the language was spread by nomadic herders of the steppes found to the north of the Black and Caspian Sea, and that their language spread throughout Europe after the invention of wheeled vehicles, from 6,000 to 5,000 years ago.

Now, an international team of researchers, with the participation of UAB Prehistory professor Roberto Risch, has conducted a genetic study which backs this second hypothesis; they identified a massive migration of herders from the Yamna culture of the North Pontic steppe (Russia, Ukraine and Moldavia) towards Europe which would have favoured the expansion of at least of few of these Indo-European languages throughout the continent.

At the same time, data indicates that, contrary to the dominant view in recent decades, today's European populations do not descend only from the first hunters-gatherers and from the people arriving during the Neolithic expansion of the Near East.

The research demonstrates that Eastern and Western European populations followed different paths 8,000 to 5,000 years ago, and that they did not come into contact with each other until 4,500 years ago, when the populations of Eastern Europe associated with the Corded Ware culture settled into a large part of Central Europe. These populations have been proved to be genetically very similar to individuals buried in the Yamna kurgans found to the north of the Black Sea (currently Russia and Ukraine), and very different to the Palaeolithic and Neolithic populations of Western Europe.

Researchers observed that the lineage of Corded Ware culture individuals in Germany matched in more than 75% that of the Yamna populations. This would imply the occurrence of a massive migration of men and women from herder societies of the North Pontic steppe towards Central Europe. This genetic link exists in Central European samples dating back 3,000 years ago the furthest DNA samples go back until now), and can still be found among today's European population. While in Northern and Central Europe this link represents around 50% of the current gene pool, the percentage in the Iberian Peninsula is of approximately 25%.

"Although ancient DNA tests cannot inform about the language spoken by the prehistoric humans analysed, the magnitude of the migratory movement would also have implied a language change. If what the genetic data states is true, and these populations live on, they must have contributed to the formation of the Indo-European languages spoken today in Europe," explains Roberto Risch.

The research also determines that before the migration of the Yamna herders, the first European farmers in Hungary, Germany and the Iberian Peninsula were genetically very homogeneous, and that the more primitive hunter-gatherer societies living in Europe did not immediately disappear; they reappeared genetically some 5,000 to 6,000 years ago. During that same period, the Yamna herders descended from the hunter-gatherer societies of Eastern Europe and from an ancestral population of the Near East.

The work, led by geneticists Wolfgang Haak from the University of Adelaide, Australia; Kurt Alt from the University of Mainz, Germany; and David Reich and Losif Lazaridis from the Harvard Medical School in Boston, represents the largest genetic study conducted to date.

Researchers studied the ancient genome of 69 Eurasian individuals dating back 8,000 to 3,000 years ago, and used new techniques on the key positions of nuclear DNA, which allowed them to study twice as many ancient nuclear DNA samples from Europe and Asia than those in previous studies and conduct precise estimations on the proportion of genetic mixture in individuals.

By adding to this database the already published results of another 25 individuals it was possible to create a statistical model of the genetic proximity of 94 prehistoric women and men.

Future Research: the Iberian Peninsula

The study does not reveal the precise origin of PIE, nor does it clarify the impact Kurgan migrations had on different parts of Europe. In the case of the Iberian Peninsula, there is a special need to determine the genetic filiation of populations from the Copper and Bronze Ages (5,000 -- 3,000 years ago).

The Mediterranean Social Archaeoecological Research Group (ASOME) of the UAB Department of Prehistory is working closely with this international work group in this direction.

"In particular, what must be determined is the location in Europe's palaeogenetic map of one of the most unique prehistorical societies, the Argar. This is the first state-type society with specialised metallurgical know-how in Western Europe and appeared some 4,200 years ago in the south-east of the Iberian peninsula," professor Risch points out.

Isto guglanje dalo je cijelu seriju zanimljivih novijih radova na istu temu seoba naroda kurganske kulture, odnosno indoeuropljanja, i povezanih tema.
Scandinavia's earliest farmers exchanged terminology with Indo-Europeans

E ovaj mi je naslov privukao pažnju, onak, feminističko-pacifistički ali kažu da je to "grand synthesis article":

Steppe migrant thugs pacified by Stone Age farming women