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Old 11.04.2014., 21:18   #61
Može li i jedna tema da izbjegne međusobna prepucavanja na S-H osnovi?
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Old 11.04.2014., 22:46   #62
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Old Norwegian - Viking travel writers Sigurd, Ohtere, and Wulfstan from the 8th century mention the Kingdom of Krowataland on the territory of today's Ukraine. It has been investigated by a Czech historian and writer Karel Krocha.
Da li imaš kakv link za ovaj navod? Taj Krowataland sam prvi put zamjetio na metapediji i pokušao ga naći na svemrežju, pa i ove putopisce, no nisam uspio (to ne znači da ne postoji nega da ga ja nisam našao). I s tim putopiscima je problem, a kamoli sa njihovim zapisima.
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Old 12.04.2014., 00:39   #63
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Da li imaš kakv link za ovaj navod? Taj Krowataland sam prvi put zamjetio na metapediji i pokušao ga naći na svemrežju, pa i ove putopisce, no nisam uspio (to ne znači da ne postoji nega da ga ja nisam našao). I s tim putopiscima je problem, a kamoli sa njihovim zapisima.
Evo uz malo surfanja do čega sam došao:

Povjesničar Karel Krocha - nisam našao pravog.

Wulfstan:

Ohthere of Hålogaland

Sigurd je malo problematičniji. Nije jasno na kojeg Sigurda se navod odnosi budući da se uopće ne spominje neki Sigurd kao putopisac u 8.stoljeću.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd_(disambiguation)

Navod o osom stoljeću NIJE dobar.

I dalje tražim Metapedijski Krowataland.
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Old 12.04.2014., 03:52   #64
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I kako to od B-o-j-k-i postadose S-r-b-i?

Bojki su i danas Bojki na njihovom jeziku, kao i na jezicima okolnih naroda. I nadalje, ako cemo uzimati slijepo i doslovno sve sto DAI kaze, zasto odbacivati ono o Servima-robovima i sorbuljama?

Sorabi ili sor-rabi, koje Einhard spominje, doslovno znaci granicni robovi, sluge, t.j. granicari.
Još mi nisi odgovorio gdje to točno Einhard u svom djelu spominje Srbe i nastanak njihovog imena.
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Old 12.04.2014., 09:56   #65
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Da li imaš kakv link za ovaj navod? Taj Krowataland sam prvi put zamjetio na metapediji i pokušao ga naći na svemrežju, pa i ove putopisce, no nisam uspio (to ne znači da ne postoji nega da ga ja nisam našao). I s tim putopiscima je problem, a kamoli sa njihovim zapisima.
http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...y-of-Lviv.html

http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/norway.html
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Old 12.04.2014., 09:57   #66
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Još mi nisi odgovorio gdje to točno Einhard u svom djelu spominje Srbe i nastanak njihovog imena.
Pise u DAI kao i to isto pise i Giljeljmo Tirski
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Old 12.04.2014., 10:32   #67
Evo karta Slavena u 8 stoljeću

obratiti pažnju na White Croats i Croat


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ea...th_century.jpg
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Old 12.04.2014., 10:38   #68
I vrlo je zanimljivo da strani povijesnicari razlikuju Srbe i Sorbe i da to nisu isti narod, to je bar svima jasno


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs
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Old 12.04.2014., 10:44   #69
In 'Hervarar Saga', Snorre Sturlason's Edda, which plays out in the Gothic world of the 4th century, the Carpathians are called 'Herevati', which in Gothic means 'Heights' (Here) and 'Crossing' (Vati), which indicates that it purportedly refers to the cross-over from east to west between Greater Carpathia and Lesser Carpathia along river Tisza. The Croatians endonym name 'Hervati' seem to point to the same source of origin. In such case, 'white' (cardinal direction north) would be somewhere at the upper Vistula/Slovakian Paradise, while 'black' Croatians would have lived in Lesser Carpathia.

Historians often point at the north part of Czech, Silesia, Lesser Poland or Ukraine as the places where White Croatia happened to be located.
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Old 12.04.2014., 10:45   #70
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Još mi nisi odgovorio gdje to točno Einhard u svom djelu spominje Srbe i nastanak njihovog imena.
Pa odgovorio sam ti indirektno u mojoj diskusiji sa Velikim Despotom. Einhard spominje Sorabe na nekoliko mjesta, uzmi pa citaj. Gdje on "tocno spominje nastanak njihovog imena", ja to nisam rekao, to si ti dovukao, i morati ces potraziti sam. Za pocetak, pogledaj u DAI 32, tamo ima nesto o Srbima i postanku njihovog imena. Ja sam samo dao prijevod i znacenje naziva "sor-rab".
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Old 12.04.2014., 10:48   #71
Evo u ovoj sagi se spominje Bijela Hrvatska

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervara..._Hei%C3%B0reks

The matter on the Gothic wars with the Huns is of considerable age, and is based on events from the early or mid-4th century that were transmitted for almost 1000 years.

It is a testimony to its great age that names appear in genuinely Germanic forms and not in any form remotely influenced by Latin. Names for Goths appear that stopped being used after 390, such as Grýting (Ostrogoth, cf. the Latin form Greutungi) and Tyrfing (Visigoth, cf. the Latin form Tervingi). The events take place where the Goths lived during the wars with the Huns. The Gothic capital Arheimar is located on the Dniepr (...á Danparstöðum á þeim bæ, er Árheimar heita...), King Heidrek dies in the Horvatya (...und Harvaða fjöllum) and the Battle with the Huns takes place on the plains of the Danube (...á vígvöll á Dúnheiði í Dylgjudölum). The mythical Mirkwood which separates the Goths from the Huns, appears to correspond to Maeotian marshes.

Zadnje uređivanje forumas ja : 12.04.2014. at 11:12.
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Old 12.04.2014., 11:49   #72
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Evo u ovoj sagi se spominje Bijela Hrvatska

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervara..._Hei%C3%B0reks

The matter on the Gothic wars with the Huns is of considerable age, and is based on events from the early or mid-4th century that were transmitted for almost 1000 years.

It is a testimony to its great age that names appear in genuinely Germanic forms and not in any form remotely influenced by Latin. Names for Goths appear that stopped being used after 390, such as Grýting (Ostrogoth, cf. the Latin form Greutungi) and Tyrfing (Visigoth, cf. the Latin form Tervingi). The events take place where the Goths lived during the wars with the Huns. The Gothic capital Arheimar is located on the Dniepr (...á Danparstöðum á þeim bæ, er Árheimar heita...), King Heidrek dies in the Horvatya (...und Harvaða fjöllum) and the Battle with the Huns takes place on the plains of the Danube (...á vígvöll á Dúnheiði í Dylgjudölum). The mythical Mirkwood which separates the Goths from the Huns, appears to correspond to Maeotian marshes.
Hvala na linkovima. Ovaj koji je napisao Žubrinić je jako dobar, ali ne upućuje na originalne zapise. Imam loša iskustva s time, pa sve provjeravam.

Ima jedno selo u Grčkoj na Peloponezu: Harvation. I to se povlačilo i vezivalo na Hrvate na metapediji. No, uz malo istrage ustanovio sam da se radi o Vlasima Arvanitima (iz Albanije) koji su se tamo naselili.


Harvaða fjöllum - to je fraza iz Hervar sage. Radi se o gorju nazivom Harvaða.

To sam i ja našao listajući sagu. Može li se to povezati s Hrvatima ili ne to je druga stvar. To definitivno NIJE naziv države nego gorja, npr. Karpati.

Mene više muče ovi drugi putopisci. I tu nailazim na probleme.

Wulfstan:

Quote:
Wulfstan of Hedeby (Latin Haithabu) was a late ninth century traveller and trader. His travel accounts, as well as those of another trader, Ohthere, were included in Alfred the Great's translation of Orosius' Histories. It is unclear if Wulfstan was English or indeed if he was from Hedeby, in today's northern Germany near the city of Schleswig.

According to this account,[clarification needed] Wulfstan undertook a journey by sea from Hedeby to the trading centre of Truso around the year 880. He names the lands the coasts he passes.

"Wulfstan said that he went from Haethum to Truso in seven days and nights, and that the ship was running under sail all the way. Weonodland was on his right, and Langland, Laeland, Falster, and Sconey, on his left, all which land is subject to Denmark. "Then on our left we had the land of the Burgundians, who have a king to themselves. Then, after the land of the Burgundians, we had on our left the lands that have been called from the earliest times Blekingey, and Meore, and Eowland, and Gotland, all which territory is subject to the Sweons; and Weonodland (= the land of the Wends) was all the way on our right, as far as Weissel-mouth."
This may be the earliest recorded use of the word "Denmark" (or "Danemearcan").
Wulfstan prvi spominje Dansku, ali o Krowatalandu ni riječi za sada. Probati ću naći te originale na svemrežju.

Weissel - mouth : ušće Visle
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:15   #73
Kopam po svemrežju u potrazi za originalnim zapisima:

Tko je bio Alfred:

THE GEOGRAPHY OF EUROPE BY KING ALFRED, ETC.

Translated in 1807 by the Rev. James Ingram, M.A., Professor of

Anglo-Saxon at the University of Oxford.

Objavljeno ovdje:

Wulfstan i Othere nisu sami napisali o svojim putovanjima nego su to u vidu iskaza dali Alfredu koji je to pretočio u svoju krasnu knjižicu.

P.S. Alfredova geograija se nalazi pred kraj knjige.

THE VOYAGES OF OHTHERE AND WULFSTAN
To the White Sea and to the Mouth of the Vistula in the Time of
Alfred the Great, with Notes on the Geography of Europe inserted by
KING ALFRED, In his Translation of Orosius.

Quote:
The "History of Orosius" itself is bald, confused; but it was enriched and improved by Alfred's addition to the first book of much new matter, enlarging knowledge of the geography of Europe, which he calls Germania, north of the Rhine and Danube. Alfred adds also to the same book geographical narratives taken from the lips of two travellers. One was Ohthere, a Norwegian, who sailed from Halgoland, on the coast of Norway, round the North Cape into the Cwen-Sae, or White Sea, and entered the mouth of the river Dwina, the voyage ending where there is now Archangel, the most northern of the Russian seaports. Ohthere afterwards made a second voyage from Halgoland along the west and south coast of Norway to the Bay of Christiania, and Sciringeshael, the port of Skerin, or Skien, near the entrance of the Christiania fjord. He then sailed southward, and reached in five days the Danish port aet Haedum, the capital town called Sleswic by the Saxons, but by the Danes Haithaby. The other traveller was Wulfstan, who sailed in the Baltic, from Slesvig in Denmark to Frische Haff within the Gulf of Danzig, reaching the Drausen Sea by Elbing. These voyages were taken from the travellers' own lips. Of Wulfstan's, the narrative passes at one time into the form of direct personal narration—"Wulfstan said that he went . . . that he had . . . And then we had on our left the land of the Burgundians [Bornholmians], who had their own king. After the land of the Burgundians we had on our left," &c. The narrative of the other voyage opens with the sentence, "Ohthere told his lord, King Alfred." These three additions to "Orosius"—the Description of Europe, the two voyages of Ohthere, and the voyage of Wulfstan— may be considered Alfred's own works.

Zadnje uređivanje mozak_free : 12.04.2014. at 12:22.
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:25   #74
Ovaj link je koji neće otvoriti

http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...y-of-Lviv.html
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:30   #75
Harvaða fjöllum - to je fraza iz Hervar sage. Radi se o gorju nazivom Harvaða.


kad stineš na Harvaða fjöllum otvori ti ovo


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:33   #76
Šta kaže Alfred:

Quote:
THE GEOGRAPHY OF EUROPE BY KING ALFRED, ETC.

Translated in 1807 by the Rev. James Ingram, M.A., Professor of
Anglo-Saxon at the University of Oxford.
Now will we describe the geography of Europe, so far, at least, as our knowledge of it extends. From the river Tanais, westward to the river Rine (which takes its rise from the Alps and runs directly north thenceforward on to the arm of the ocean that surrounds Bryttania), then southward to the river Danube (whose source is near the river Rine, running afterwards in its course along the confines of Northern Greece, till it empties itself into the Mediterranean), and northward even unto the ocean, which men call Cwen-sea; within these boundaries are many nations; but the whole of this tract of country is called Germany.

Then to the north of the source of the Danube, and to the east of the Rine, are the Eastern Franks, and to the south of them are the Suabians; on the opposite bank of the Danube, and to the south and east, are the Bavarians, in that part which is called Regnesburh. Due east from thence are the Bohemians, and to the north-east the Thyringians, to the north of these are the Old Saxons, to the north- west are the Frieslanders, and to the west of the Old Saxons is the mouth of the Elbe, as also Friesland. Hence to the west-north is that land which is called Angleland, Sealand, and some part of Den- marc; to the north is Apdrede, and to the east-north the wolds, which are called the Heath-wolds. Hence eastward is the land of the Veneti (who are also called Silesae), extending south-west over a great part of the territory of the Moravians. These Moravians have to the west the Thyringians and Bohemians, as also part of Bavaria, and to the south, on the other side of the Danube, is the country of the Carinthians, lying southward even to the Alps. To the same mountains also extend the boundaries of the Bavarians and the Suabians. Thence to the eastward of Carinthia, beyond the waste, is the land of the Bulgarians. To the east of them is the land of the Greeks, and to the east of Moravia is Wisle-land; to the east of that are the Dacae, who were originally a tribe of Goths. To the north-east of the Moravians are the Dalamensae; east of the Dalamensians are the Horithi, and north of the Dalamensians are the Servians; to the west also are the Silesians. To the north of the Horiti is Mazovia, and north of Mazovia are the Sarmatians, quite to the Riphaean mountains. To the west of the Southern Danes is the arm of the ocean that surrounds Britannia, and to the north of them is the arm of the sea called Ost Sea; to the east and to the north of them are the Northern Danes, both on the continent and on the islands; to the east of them are the Afdrede; and to the south is the mouth of the Elb, with some part of Old Saxony. The Northern Danes have to the north of them the same arm of the sea called Ost Sea; to the east of them is the nation of the Estonians, and the Afdrede to the south. The Estonians have to the north of them the same arm of the sea, and also the Winedae and Burgundae, and to the South are the Heath-wolds. The Burgundians have the same arm of the sea to the west of them, and the Sweons to the north; to the east of them are the Sarmatians, and to the south the Servians. The Sweons have to the south of them the same arm of the sea, called Ost Sea; to the east of them the Sarmatians; and to the north, over the wastes, is Cwenland; to the west-north of them are the Scride- Finnas, and to the west the Northmen.
Eto uživajte.

Zadnje uređivanje mozak_free : 12.04.2014. at 12:40.
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:34   #77
Evo gdje su Bijelo Hrvati dio Kievan Rus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...54-1132%29.jpg
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:46   #78
Evo još:

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Now will we speak about those parts of Europe that lie to the south of the river Danube; and first of all, concerning Greece. The sea which flows along the eastern side of Constantinople (a Grecian city) is called Propontis. To the north of this Grecian city an arm of the sea shoots up westward from the Euxine; and to the west by north the mouths of the river Danube empty themselves south-east into the Euxine. To the south and west of these mouths are the Moessians, a tribe of Greeks; to the west of the city are the Thracians; and to the west also are the Macedonians. To the south of this city, towards the southern part of that arm of the sea which is called the Egean, Athens and Corinth are situated. And to the west by south of Corinth is the land of Achaia, near the Mediterranean. To the west of Achaia, along the Mediterranean, is Dalmatia, on the north side of the sea; to the north of Dalmatia are the boundaries of Bulgaria and Istria. To the south of Istria is that part of the Mediterranean which is called the Adriatic; to the west are the Alps; and to the north that desert which is between the Carinthians and the Bulgarians.
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:54   #79
Adam Naruszewicz u dijelu Historia narodu polskiego

https://archive.org/stream/historyan...ugoog_djvu.txt

spominje ovo


Długosz na karcie 123 powiada „DuxBu8siae va8taU» CbrMKtt
^infertur Uli a Polonis beUum, contra guos egressus ad fluviwn Rubiesaa
y^eos offendit,*^ Dowiedliśmy w wyissej nocie ^ *e to była taż 'sama
wojna, o której zaczęciu sascy pisarze pod rokiem 992 namieni^ą.
Kromer nie wchodząc w okoliczności i czasy wojen Włodzimierza
s iróżaemi narodami słowiańskiemi, w powszechności tylko, mieszając
ćhronotogią, mónn pod Mieczysławem o Włodzimierzu na karcie
35: jfifdUmos Btdgaros^ Croatos^ Viatwo8f Duhpios et Jaaygas tri-
yfhUarum feok,*^ Nie byli nigdy Bosioi Bułgarom sąsiadami, finitmi,
będąc od nieh Pieczygami przedzieleni; trudno też wierzyć, aby
yfMakimn Balgartfw podbił, ponieważ o tam ani ruskie kr**



jel može netko to prevesti
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Old 12.04.2014., 12:57   #80
Da završim s tim putovanjima:

Quote:
"Wulfstan said that he went from Haethum to Truso in seven days and nights, and that the ship was running under sail all the way. Weonodland was on his right, and Langland, Laeland, Falster, and Sconey, on his left, all which land is subject to Denmark. "Then on our left we had the land of the Burgundians, who have a king to themselves. Then, after the land of the Burgundians, we had on our left the lands that have been called from the earliest times Blekingey, and Meore, and Eowland, and Gotland, all which territory is subject to the Sweons; and Weonodland was all the way on our right, as far as Weissel-mouth. The Weissel is a very large river, and near it lie Witland and Weonodland. Witland belongs to the people of Eastland; and out of Weonodland flows the river Weissel, which empties itself afterwards into Estmere. This lake, called Estmere, is about fifteen miles broad. Then runs the Ilfing east (of the Weissel) into Estmere, from that lake on the banks of which stands Truso. These two rivers come out together into Estmere, the Ilfing east from Eastland, and the Weissel south from Weonodland. Then the Weissel deprives the Ilfing of its name, and, flowing from the west part of the lake, at length empties itself northward into the sea, whence this point is called the Weissel-mouth. This country called Eastland is very extensive, and there are in it many towns, and in every town is a king. There is a great quantity of honey and fish; and even the king and the richest men drink mare's milk, whilst the poor and the slaves drink mead. There is a vast deal of war and contention amongst the different tribes of this nation. There is no ale brewed amongst the Estonians, but they have mead in profusion.
Nema nikakvog Krowatalanda. Ali ima Horitha koji su južno od Mazovjana. To bi bili Hrvati, odnosno Bijeli Hrvati. Mazovjani su potvrđeno Poljsko "pleme". Stvar je manje više jasna krajem devetog stoljeća.

Ovi Servi koji se spominju u prethodnom postu se vjerojatno odnose na pretke današnjih Lužičkih Srba.

I to je to.

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