Tumačenje povijesnih migracija pomoću populacijske genetike II. dio

[hrvat22]

imamo zanimljiv presjek genetike koja se tiče određenih prezimena... izvor je firma 23andme i njeni podaci..

Horvath

The top paternal haplogroup of people with the surname Horvath is R-CTS3402, which is predominantly found among people with European ancestry. Haplogroup R-CTS3402 is descended from haplogroup R-M420. Other common haplogroups include I-S17250 and R-U152, which are predominantly found among people with European and European ancestry. Other surnames with similar common haplogroups are: Toth, Nagy, Szabo, Molnar, Novak, Varga, Urban, Kovacs, Ivanov, Schuster.

https://discover.23andme.com/last-name/Horvath

Toth

The top paternal haplogroup of people with the surname Toth is I-S17250, which is predominantly found among people with European ancestry. Haplogroup I-S17250 is descended from haplogroup I-M170. Other common haplogroups include R-CTS3402 and R-M417, which are predominantly found among people with European and European ancestry.

https://discover.23andme.com/last-name/Toth


Novak

The top paternal haplogroup of people with the surname Novak is R-CTS3402, which is predominantly found among people with European ancestry. Haplogroup R-CTS3402 is descended from haplogroup R-M420. Other common haplogroups include R-M417 and R-Y2905, which are predominantly found among people with European and European ancestry.

https://discover.23andme.com/last-name/Novak

Nagy

The top paternal haplogroup of people with the surname Nagy is I-S17250, which is predominantly found among people with European ancestry. Haplogroup I-S17250 is descended from haplogroup I-M170. Other common haplogroups include R-CTS3402 and I-Z58, which are predominantly found among people with European and European ancestry.

https://discover.23andme.com/last-name/Nagy

Varga

The top paternal haplogroup of people with the surname Varga is R-CTS3402, which is predominantly found among people with European ancestry. Haplogroup R-CTS3402 is descended from haplogroup R-M420. Other common haplogroups include I-S17250 and R-U152, which are predominantly found among people with European and European ancestry.

https://discover.23andme.com/last-name/Varga

[Nibula]

U Viminacijumu u pronađenom ženskom skeletu otkriven verovatno najstariji autosomalni uzorak DNK u starih Slovena.

Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja:I32305,0.130897,0.11577, 0.075047,0.071706,0.033852,0.032909,0.0094,0.01107 6,0.008999,-0.017312,0.000325,-3e-04,0.015015,0.015827,-0.010586,0.006762,0.000652,0.001394,-0.002388,0.012881,-0.000374,0.002226,0.012818,-0.007591,0.003712

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pH...cJlBLhFe-/view

https://i.postimg.cc/Vvk0z63P/Untitled-2.jpg

[Edvinbih]

Nibula kaže:

U Viminacijumu u pronađenom ženskom skeletu otkriven verovatno najstariji autosomalni uzorak DNK u starih Slovena.

Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja:I32305,0.130897,0.11577, 0.075047,0.071706,0.033852,0.032909,0.0094,0.01107 6,0.008999,-0.017312,0.000325,-3e-04,0.015015,0.015827,-0.010586,0.006762,0.000652,0.001394,-0.002388,0.012881,-0.000374,0.002226,0.012818,-0.007591,0.003712

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pH...cJlBLhFe-/view

https://i.postimg.cc/Vvk0z63P/Untitled-2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/hGVVsNsT/I32305-IA-Roman-admix.png

[Trag bez kraja]

Dakle nakon ovakvih rezultata (a bit će ih još po nedavnim izjavama nekih znanstvenika koji se bave arheo-genetikom) ovakvi članci više ne bi trebali čuditi:

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/327619

https://zadarski.slobodnadalmacija.h...lmaciji-485906

https://www.academia.edu/33256189/Wh...uthark_and_why

[hrvat22]

lingvistički pogled na pradomovinu slavena, a tu se navode i hrvati..


The Puzzle of the Ethnicon Hrvati

1. ) First, we should reconstruct the primary, i.e., PS1. form of the
ethnicon. On the basis of the following facts:

a. ) S-C Hrvat, gen. Hrvata, plur. Hrvati (old Hrvate );

b. ) ORuss. Xorvate, Xrovate, Xrvate, Xrbvate;

c. ) OCz. (from OPol.) Charvaty (as a toponym);

d. ) Greek (Constantine Porphyrogenitus) Xpu>|3&Toi;

e. ) Latin Chrouati (lOth-llth cent.), also Chruvati vicus (in Thietmar referring to a Lusatian territory, known now as Klein-
-Corbetha) from North West Slavic *Xrovat- < PS1. *Xorvat- (?);

f. ) Greek toponyms: XapP&Tu and so forth (in Vasmer’s

Sloven in Griechenland, where ap seems to stand for an unmetathesized Slav, tart, cf. TapSua for *gardbkb, etc.); we can establish two PS1. variants as basic: *Xbrvate and *Xorvate, with the primary consonantal-stem plural in a stressed -e.

In all early medieval sources various forms of this ethnicon refer first to the South Slavic Croatians (Greek Xpo)|3&Toi, Lat. Chrouati), then to the sub-Carpathian Croats in the Upper Dniestr basin (an East Slavic tribe in the Povest’ vremennyx let: Xorvate, etc.) or to the Croats in the Polish-Bohemian borderland in the region of the Sudeten (OCz. Charvaty, etc.), and once to a tribe on the Upper Sorbian territory (Thietmar ’s Chruvati). These facts, supported by a clear statement in Porphyrogenitus, seem to indicate that the South Slavic Croatians represent the main branch of a prehistorical Proto-Slavic tribe whose primary habitat, before their migration to the Balkans, was located north of the western Carpathians.

2. ) For any linguist acquainted with comparative historical Slavic grammar the very form of the ethnicon *X hrvate provokes the suspicion that it is of non-Slavic origin. First, the original Slavic character of the initial x- would be justified only in the case of PIE *ks-, which is quite a rare case. Second, the derivational form with a consonant-stem suffix is also rather exceptional in the Slavic material (among Slavic ethnica I would quote here as possible parallels *Venete/i and Veleti). Therefore it is no wonder that most Slavists have proposed a non-Slavic etymology for *. Xbrvate.

3.) Here I will briefly discuss the existing etymologies, reject them, and propose a new one which seems to meet the requirements of exact historical-comparative methods.

a. ) Iranian etymology, recently supported by Trubacev ( Etimologija 1965:32). Variant i) Sarmatian personal name XopoaGos, XopouaGos (in Tanais), 2nd-3rd cent. A.D., i.e., *HurvaQa- ‘bonus amicus’ — but then we should expect *Xbrvot- or rather a patronymic form *Xbrvot-itji, i.e., S-C *Xrvotici.

Variant ii) Av. haurvatat- // haurvat-, i.e., *harvatat- // *harvat- ‘totality,’ etc. (from *harva- = Lat. salvus ) — but then the only form in Slavic would be *Xorvat-, although semantically there are interesting parallels in Germ. Allemannen and, with a reversed semantic order, in Oscan touto ‘civitas,’ Umbrian tota ‘civitas’ as opposed to Lat. totus, -a, -um.

b. ) Germanic etymology, based upon a phrase Harvafia or Hszrvalpa fjoll, i.e., ‘Berge der Chorvaten’ (according to R. Heinzel’s interpretation), in the Old Scandinavian Hervararsaga, a passage referring to the Carpathians, with which the primary Croats, *Xbrvate, were closely connected, as we have mentioned. But what is the Germanic source of HarvaQa // Hetrvapa, i.e. PS1. *Xorvate, cannot be established: its interpretation as a Germanized form with Lautverschiebung of the oronym KapTT&rris (in Ptolemy) is semantically inexplicable and highly improbable in view of the bookish and learned character of this oronym, which is unknown in the native linguistic tradition of the Slavs dwelling in the Carpathian region.

c. ) The third traditional etymology proposes a Slavic origin of the ethnicon. According to this hypothesis *Xbrvate // *Xorvate is related to Lith. Sarvuotas ‘armored’ (‘geharnischt’), which in its turn comes from Sarvas ‘armor’ (‘Harnisch, Panzer, Riistung’); so *Xbrvat6 would mean ‘the armored.’ But there are serious formal objections to this etymology. First, Lith. Sarvas does not continue any *ks- which would result in Slavic x-, but rather represents primary IE *k’orHuos, a substantivized adjective from the IE stem *k’erH-u- ‘horn,’ and it has obvious correspondences in IE
languages, for which see below (cf. here also Gr. Kopvs n. ‘helmet’; Fraenkel, 965, and Pokorny, 574). In this connection the primary meaning of Lith. Sdrvas would be ‘horn-armor,’ a type of armor well-known to the ancient East European peoples. An exact Slavic correspondence representing the regular satam treatment of *k’- should be *sorvb, then *Sorvate, etc. Second, the Lith. adjectives in -uotas have exact correspondences in Slavic denominal adjectives in
-atb (with the old acute), e.g., *bordatb, Russ, borodatyj, etc. In addition, the primary word-final stress and the consonant-stem declension of the ethnicon *Xorvate // *Xbrvate does not permit us to equate it with Lith. Sarviiotas. Thus the correspondence Lith. sarvuotas ~ PS1. *Xorvate, etc., is illusory and should be rejected.

4.) Now, after this criticism of existing etymologies I shall propose a new one which seems to be better substantiated both formally and semantically.

My contention is that *Xbrvat- // *Xorvat- (a consonantal stem!) was derived from a common noun *xbrvb // *xorvb ‘armor’ (primarily ‘horn-armor’), which should be treated as a prehistorical loanword from Germc. *hurwa- // *harwa-, the latter representing the PIE adj. *k’[Hyo- // *k’orHuo- (cf. Gr. Kepaos ‘horned’ and Lith. Sarvas, quoted above). The fact that the historical Germc. languages have not preserved the hypothetical *hurwa- 1 I *harwa- may be merely an accident of history. We know of such cases in the history of languages. For example, there are some Slavic loanwords in Rumanian that have no correspondences in historical Slavic languages (e.g., zapdda f. ‘snow,’ from Slav. *zapada, etc.). Of course, other derivatives of the root *k’erH- are known in Germanic, first of all the noun *huma = horn. The PIE adjective *k’erHuo- (full vocalism) I I *k’{Huo- (zero vocalism) is well attested in many IE languages; as is well-known, Balto-Slav. *kdrua- ‘cow’ with an exceptional kentum treatment of *k’- belongs here too (see Pokorny,
576).

Some interesting traces of the borrowed PS1. *xbrvb can be found in West Slavic, specifically in Polish. The most important is OPol. (1494 in the Poznan city-book) charwat ‘miles in servitio civitatis,’ which seems to represent an adjective with the suffix -atb from the hypothetical *xbrvb, but is not the exact counterpart of the ethnicon because from a primary stem in -t we would rather expect *charwac, cf. paznokiec, lokiec, dziesiqc. Another one is Slovak (with the Polish treatment of *tbrt) charvat’ sa // charvit’ sa ‘defend oneself,’ charva // charvanie ‘defense.’ There are also two Kashubian words: charwatynia ‘abandoned cottage,’ primarily ‘sentiy shelter’ (?), also a place name, and charwanc ( *xbrvant>cb ) ‘sheaf of grain full of weeds,’ probably a derivative from *charwad ‘protect’ and primarily
meaning ‘a sheaf used to cover the top of a shock.’

All these lexical facts seem to indicate the existence in the Northwest PSI. dialects of the noun *xbrvb ‘armor’ and its derivatives *xbrvati s$ // *xbrviti 5? ‘get armored’ -»> ‘defend oneself.’ In this connection we should also mention some toponyms in Poland that seem to continue the ethnicon *Xbrvat- in its third variant *Xn>vat- (e.g., OPol. Chrwaty, etc.), which is well substantiated by the phenomena of the historical phonetics of Germanic. Other toponyms continuing the most frequent variant *Xbrvat- are known in Northern Bohemia and Northern Moravia. All of them, incidentally, represent the Polish treatment of the primary *tbrt as tart: Charvaty.

The geographical distribution of these linguistic facts would clearly point towards the primary location of the prehistorical Croats ( *Xbrvate ) north of the Carpathians on the historical South Polish territory ( Matopolska ) and towards a subsequent emigration of their main bulk south through the Moravian Gate. We can even hypothesize that the borrowing of the Germc. *hurwa- ‘horn-armor’ took place somewhere in the sub-Carpathian region, and that its source was the PGermc. dialect of the Bastarnians, who dwelt along the eastern Carpathians in the first to third centuries A.D.

324...

The origins of the Slavs: a linguist's view"
Gołąb, Zbigniew

https://archive.nyu.edu/handle/2451/39006

[Wikiceha]

Po ovome bi riječ Hrvati došla od rogova?

[hrvat22]

Wikiceha kaže:

Po ovome bi riječ Hrvati došla od rogova?

možda se radi o rogovima na kacigi..

A pair of bronze horned helmets, the Veksø helmets, from the later Bronze Age (dating to c. 1100-900 BCE) were found near Veksø, Denmark, in 1942.[1] Another early find is the Grevensvænge hoard from Zealand, Denmark, (c. 800–500 BCE, now partially lost

Depicted on the Arch of Constantine, dedicated in 315 CE, are Germanic soldiers, sometimes identified as "Cornuti", shown wearing horned helmets. On the relief representing the Battle of Verona (312) they are in the first lines, and they are depicted fighting with the bowmen in the relief of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_helmet

[Trag bez kraja]

Nisam lingvistički stručnjak i možda je potpuna glupost ovo što pišem, ali meni je nekako najlogičnije da su Hrvati dobili ime po odlikama zemljopisnog područja na kojem su živjeli. Hrvati su dali ime Poljacima (oni iz ravnice), dok su Poljaci Hrvate nazivali „goranima“ jer su živjeli na brdovitom području Karpata. Ako je jezik tada bio sličan (staro-slavenski), to je mogla biti jedina bitnija razlikovna odrednica. A gle čuda Poljaci su baš dobili ime po ravnici (polju).

Arheo-genetika, pa i autosomalni rezultati stvarno pokazuju da se više-manje kod Hrvata porijeklom iz svih dijelova Hrvatske njihov slavenski dio porijekla izvorno grupira oko tog uskog područja tromeđe današnje Poljske, Slovačke i Ukrajine, upravo najbrdovitijeg dijela naseljenog Slavenima (ako ne računamo Balkan).

prasl. i stsl. xrьbьtъ (rus. xrebét, polj. chrzebiet) ? ≃ v. grba
Izvor: https://hjp.znanje.hr/index.php?show...fVxvWhQ%3D

m (sg. NV herbat, harbat B s. v. harbat, herbet, A harbat Zrinski 88)

East Slavic:
Belarusian: хрыбе́т (xrybjét)
Russian: хребе́т (xrebét)
Carpathian Rusyn: хырбет (xŷrbet)
Ukrainian: хребе́т (xrebét)
South Slavic:
Old Church Slavonic: хрьбьтъ (xrĭbĭtŭ)
Bulgarian: хръбе́т (hrǎbét)
Macedonian: ’рбет (’rbet)
Slovene: hrbet
West Slavic:
Old Czech: chřbet
Czech: hřbet
Kashubian: chrzëbt, chrzebiet, krzebt
Old Polish: chrzbiet
Polish: grzbiet
Slovak: chrbát


Mene ovo *Xbrvat- jako podsjeća na hrbat, a posebno na kajkavski oblik herbat, herbet na kraju Harvat.

[hrvat22]

mislim da je ime hrvat starije od većine doseljenih slavenskih skupina... ako uzmemo tanajske ploče etnonim hrvat postoji u ukrajinskoj stepi oko 2-3. stoljeća... kandidati za prenošenje tog etnonima su pojedine I2a grane i one su se odvojile odnosno otišle iz južne poljske prije 2 tisuće godina što bi značilo da naziv hrvat već tada postoji, međutim u to vrijeme glavnine slavena koliko ja znam tamo još nema... prve skupine koje su mogle doći u doticaj sa I2a skupinom su upravo germani.. moguće da su oni dali naziv toj I2a skupini..

imamo i ovaj kasniji podatak..

More detailed information is given by Arabian historians and explorers. Ahmad ibn Rustah from the beginning of the 10th century recounts that the land of Pechenegs is ten days away from the Slavs and that the city in which lives Swntblk is called ʒ-r-wāb (Džervab > Hrwat), where every month Slavs do three-day long trade fair. Swntblk is called "king of kings", has riding horses, sturdy armor, eats mare's milk, and is more important than Subanj (considered Slavic title župan), who is his deputy.

Scale armour is an early form of armour consisting of many individual small armour scales (plates) of various shapes attached to each other and to a backing of cloth or leather in overlapping rows.[1] Scale armour was worn by warriors of many different cultures as well as their horses. The material used to make the scales varied and included bronze, iron, steel, rawhide, leather, cuir bouilli, seeds, horn, or pangolin scales. The variations are primarily the result of material availability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_armour


ovo je moje mišljenje..

[Al dente]

Trag bez kraja kaže:

Nisam lingvistički stručnjak i možda je potpuna glupost ovo što pišem, ali meni je nekako najlogičnije da (...)

... Eto uvoda u novu katastrofu Da, ono što dalje pišeš je glupost, a "logika" bi ti ponajprije trebala nalagati da ne fantaziraš napamet.

(...) Hrvati su dali ime Poljacima (oni iz ravnice), dok su Poljaci Hrvate nazivali „goranima“ jer su živjeli na brdovitom području Karpata. (...)

Aj' nemoj

[Trag bez kraja]

hrvat22 kaže:

mislim da je ime hrvat starije od većine doseljenih slavenskih skupina... ako uzmemo tanajske ploče etnonim hrvat postoji u ukrajinskoj stepi oko 2-3. stoljeća... kandidati za prenošenje tog etnonima su pojedine I2a grane i one su se odvojile odnosno otišle iz južne poljske prije 2 tisuće godina što bi značilo da naziv hrvat već tada postoji, međutim u to vrijeme glavnine slavena koliko ja znam tamo još nema... prve skupine koje su mogle doći u doticaj sa I2a skupinom su upravo germani.. moguće da su oni dali naziv toj I2a skupini..

imamo i ovaj kasniji podatak..


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_armour


ovo je moje mišljenje..

To ne mora ništa značiti. Ako pogledaš reljefnu kartu svijeta, sve do Urala je nizina. Karpati su viši od Urala. Iza Urala je također nizina. Nizinsko je i područje oko Kaspijskog jezera otkud su navodno porijeklom Slaveni. Nije nemoguće da su Slaveni naziv za „brđane“ preuzeli od naroda s kojim su se susreli, a koji su živjeli na brdovitom području Karpata. Ti starosjedioci sjeveroistočno od Balkana su bili I2 haplogrupe s kojom su se Slaveni pomiješali i asimilirali ih. Kasnije su se tijekom seobe naroda zajedno spustili na Balkan. Zašto bi ovo bio nerealan scenarij?

Simptomatično mi je to što jezikoslovci muku muče s nazivom Hrvat koji im zvuči neslavenski, a imaju slavensku riječ hrbat koja je vrlo slična. Tu mi nešto ne štima…

[Trag bez kraja]

Al dente kaže:

... Eto uvoda u novu katastrofu Da, ono što dalje pišeš je glupost, a "logika" bi ti ponajprije trebala nalagati da ne fantaziraš napamet.

Aj' nemoj

Fora mi je kad kažeš "aj nemoj", a ne napišeš mi u čemu griješim sa stručnim objašnjenjem zašto sam napisao glupost? Od jednog intelektualca se očekuje da poduči neznalice i objasni im, a ne da se iživljava i ismijava druge...

[Wikiceha]

hrvat22 kaže:

možda se radi o rogovima na kacigi..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_helmet

Vikinzi prije Vikinga

@Trag bez kraja, hrvatsko se ime javlja prije nego što su nam preci došli u Karpate, prvo spominjanje su Tanais/Azov, to je istočna granica Ukrajine, a to su same ravnice.
Skitska stepa.

[Trag bez kraja]

Wikiceha kaže:

Vikinzi prije Vikinga

@Trag bez kraja, hrvatsko se ime javlja prije nego što su nam preci došli u Karpate, prvo spominjanje su Tanais/Azov, to je istočna granica Ukrajine, a to su same ravnice.
Skitska stepa.

Ali Hrvati su u međuvremenu mogli migrirati malo zapadnije tijekom dolaska Slavena, a budući da su živjeli na brdovitom području, Slaveni su mogli riječ za gorje nazvati po njima jer su u svojoj pradomovini živjeli u ravničarskom području. Pa pogledaj Mađare, oni su sve nazive za voće i povrće preuzeli od Slavena jer su bili konjanici i nisu se bavili poljoprivredom u to vrijeme, za razliku od Slavena.

[Wikiceha]

Trag bez kraja kaže:

Ali Hrvati su u međuvremenu mogli migrirati malo zapadnije tijekom dolaska Slavena, a budući da su živjeli na brdovitom području, Slaveni su mogli riječ za gorje nazvati po njima jer su u svojoj pradomovini živjeli u ravničarskom području. Pa pogledaj Mađare, oni su sve nazive za voće i povrće preuzeli od Slavena jer su bili konjanici i nisu se bavili poljoprivredom u to vrijeme, za razliku od Slavena.

Li-la.
Mađari su imali cijelu evoluciju.
Od sakupljača bobica u Sibiru, do poljoprivrednika uz volgu, konjanika u Skitskoj stepi...
Radili su oni svašta.

Hrvati su Slaveni.
Barem genetski.
Sami Slaveni vjerojatno i nastaju miješanjem u Karpatima (i okolnim močvarama), između I2a domorodaca i R1a indoeuropljana.
Opet, uzmi da su Slaveni manje-više "južni Balti", a da su i zapadni i istočni Balti R1a+N1.

Pogledaj kartu Galicije;
https://forgottengalicia.com/wp-cont...meria-1910.png
Nisu samo brda, to su i nizine, a Bjelohrvatska bi još veći komad nizine trebala obuhvaćati.

Bjelohrvatska je zapravo dosta velika bila...

[Amater33]

Evo, pošto je prije nekog vrimena bila priča o mađarskim Horvatima, jedan Horvath je konačno napravio Big-Y i upao je u ovu granu skupa sa Dalmatincima i Ličanima i odvaja se od njih prije nekih 1400 godina:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-BY37511/tree

Inaće, ta grana je ispod I2a-PH908-FT14506-A13912

[Trag bez kraja]

Taj Horvat u toj grani po muškoj liniji dijeli zajedničkog pretka koji je živio 200. godine prije Krista s osobom pokopanom u Hrtkovcima, Vojvodini cca 1000. godine poslije Krista.

Toj osobi koja je umrla u Hrtkovcima 1000. godine autosomalno su danas najbliže ove populacije:

1. South_Polish (4.367)
2. Polish (5.827)
3. Croatian (6.416)
4. Ukrainian_Lviv (6.756)
5. Ukrainian (6.772)
6. Slovenian (7.199)
7. Russian_Smolensk (8.165)
8. Hungarian (8.986)

Nekima porijeklom iz sjeverozapadne Hrvatske je taj rezultat autosomalno trenutno na prvom mjestu.

[hrvat22]

zanimljiv je uzorak iz zagorja, ludbreg

I-BY37511

Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>S17250>PH908>FT14506>A13912 (I-A13912)
Name: Horvath
Kit Number: B491250
Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Selnik, Ludbreg, Croatia

mutacija I-BY37511 je na live YFull stablu stavljena kao predačka mutacija ovima iz like i dalmacije..

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-Y30728/

što je zanimljivo jer bi pretpostavljena migracija horvata iz mađarske i ovog iz ludbrega trebala ići iz dalmacije prema sjeveru, a za sada je situacija da su i horvat iz mađarske i ovaj iz ludbrega u predačkim mutacijama što bi ukazivalo na kontra smjer migracije, iz smjera mađarske i zagorja prema dalmaciji.. vidjet ćemo kako će se stanje odvijati

[staraevropa]

hrvat22 kaže:

zanimljiv je uzorak iz zagorja, ludbreg



mutacija I-BY37511 je na live YFull stablu stavljena kao predačka mutacija ovima iz like i dalmacije..

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-Y30728/

što je zanimljivo jer bi pretpostavljena migracija horvata iz mađarske i ovog iz ludbrega trebala ići iz dalmacije prema sjeveru, a za sada je situacija da su i horvat iz mađarske i ovaj iz ludbrega u predačkim mutacijama što bi ukazivalo na kontra smjer migracije, iz smjera mađarske i zagorja prema dalmaciji.. vidjet ćemo kako će se stanje odvijati

Zar ovaj iz Ludbrega Horvath nije isti kojeg i Amater pominje da je uradio BIGY?

Inače, na YFull stablu se skoro pojavio i jedan testirani koji je radio Nebulu, a pozitivan je na BY37511. Nema podataka o porijeklu.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-Y30728/

[hrvat22]

staraevropa kaže:

Zar ovaj iz Ludbrega Horvath nije isti kojeg i Amater pominje da je uradio BIGY?

Inače, na YFull stablu se skoro pojavio i jedan testirani koji je radio Nebulu, a pozitivan je na BY37511. Nema podataka o porijeklu.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-Y30728/

ne znam, čekam da netko provjeri je ii se radi o istoj osobi.. moguće da se radi o istoj osobi ali ne znam zašto bi se navela mađarska ako je osoba iz hrvatske.. u svakom slučaju to netko mora provjeriti a ja nemam mogućnosti..

međutim i dalje je njegova ili njihova mutacija predačka ovima iz like i dalmacije što je čudno s obzirom na širenje prezimena horvat, ali to prezime je moglo prelaziti na druge koji možda nemaju veze sa dalmacijom..

ja sve mislim da je to taj horvat kojeg navodiš na YFull stablu , ali još ne znamo o kome se tu radi..